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People who reject vaccinations based on stupidity are a danger to themselves and others.
I feel sorry for those who are immuno-compromised or children of parents who live on delusional cunt-land where they think their kids are their property and can thus do whatever they want to them (like rejecting evidence based research and refusing to give them an MMR jab because they're afraid Wakefield's paranoia/lust for money might come and rape them from under the bed).
Ok, so, hi, I'm back for now, largely because I just needed to talk about how mind numbingly stupid people can get with their pseudoscience and conspiracy theories. Specifically, I'm on a skeptic group on facebook and we have some good discussions, but once in a while, we get a nut with some kinda extreme beliefs.
Let me start by saying I'm glad I don't live near this person. He lives in Canada, so, if anyone's up there, you might watch out. I did a little research on herd immunity and, yes, people like him put the people around him at risk. But I've been taking all kinds of classes in biology, so I've really gotten to learn about this stuff and because of that, the bullshit-o-meter really goes off when I hear the stupids.
So, his claims were as follows.
1) Diseases we eliminated with vaccines were on their way out anyway
Really? Small Pox wasn't on its way out. Polio wasn't on its way out. Yellow Fever wasn't on its way out. Chicken Pox will probably be the next one eliminated and it's not on it's way out. Many of these diseases were killing people before we dealt with them. What's worse, diseases we didn't have to worry about at all 20 years ago, they're starting to make comebacks because of anti-vaccine nut like this. So we might not have to worry about them, but our children and grandchildren might not be so lucky.
2) Vaccines are an attempt by big pharmacutical companies to get money from us; specifically, they get us to pay them for the vaccines, the vaccines make us sicker which results in them making money by curing whatever sickness we get then.
Also flawed. While I don't doubt for a second that pharmicutical companies (or any company, for that matter) will take less than ethical measures to get extra money, I don't think the scientific community is going to let them get away with selling us poisons like that. If they actually were that unhealthy, it would only be a matter of time before they get called on it and their sales completely dry up while they have to pay off a lot of lawsuits. No, that would be a terrible way of making money.
3) Vaccines are weakening our immune system becase it doesn't actualy get a chance to fight diseases.
This is the kind of garbage that shows me this person doesn't have even a rudimentary understanding of how the immune system works. Specifically, it's not like a muscle; you don't have to work it out to keep it working.
4) Vaccines have toxins and heavy metals in them which make them dangerous
This one is actually partially true, but, again, a descent understanding of biology eases things up. Yes, there is a small amount of toxins in there, usually mercury. It's put in there to trigger an immune response, which brings in more memory cells and the memory cells are the ones that create immunity. The vaccine could still work without those, but we'd have to use larger doses. However, the other crazy part is this: they use incredibly small amounts of mercury in vaccines. Specifically, they use so little that you'd be more likely to get mercury poisoning from a tin of tuna than you would in a vaccine.
5) Vaccines use inactivated viruses that aren't always inactivated
Not really. All we need from the viru or bacteria is an idea of what their surface proteins are like and we use those in the vaccine. The memory cells learn to fight off the infection based on those protein markers.
He also linked me to some sites that promote his line of thinking. I'll post a couple of them here.
So, I wanted to see if they understood what they're talking about. Specifically, I just did a brief search for the phrase "lymphocyte." I figure, if they're talking about the immune system, they'd kinda have to say something about that, right?
Nope. That word was not used once in either article. Look for yourself. I did a slower search to see if parts of the phrase would be in there anywhere and the most I was able to get is that one of them talked about "lymph tissue" which, actually, just makes it sound worse (in that the phrase "lymph tissue" is, at best, ambigious).
Ugh. Why do people fall for garbage like this? Why do they critique, so harshly, well documnted scientific findings that conflicts with them but they so readily accept some crackpot blog post that could have been written by any nut?
Tell them to think back to the 1700's, imagine life before vaccinations & modern medical practice. Then ask them what they'd do with their average life expectancy of 35.
Ok, so, hi, I'm back for now, largely because I just needed to talk about how mind numbingly stupid people can get with their pseudoscience and conspiracy theories. Specifically, I'm on a skeptic group on facebook and we have some good discussions, but once in a while, we get a nut with some kinda extreme beliefs.
Let me start by saying I'm glad I don't live near this person. He lives in Canada, so, if anyone's up there, you might watch out. I did a little research on herd immunity and, yes, people like him put the people around him at risk. But I've been taking all kinds of classes in biology, so I've really gotten to learn about this stuff and because of that, the bullshit-o-meter really goes off when I hear the stupids.
So, his claims were as follows.
1) Diseases we eliminated with vaccines were on their way out anyway
Really? Small Pox wasn't on its way out. Polio wasn't on its way out. Yellow Fever wasn't on its way out. Chicken Pox will probably be the next one eliminated and it's not on it's way out. Many of these diseases were killing people before we dealt with them. What's worse, diseases we didn't have to worry about at all 20 years ago, they're starting to make comebacks because of anti-vaccine nut like this. So we might not have to worry about them, but our children and grandchildren might not be so lucky.
2) Vaccines are an attempt by big pharmacutical companies to get money from us; specifically, they get us to pay them for the vaccines, the vaccines make us sicker which results in them making money by curing whatever sickness we get then.
Also flawed. While I don't doubt for a second that pharmicutical companies (or any company, for that matter) will take less than ethical measures to get extra money, I don't think the scientific community is going to let them get away with selling us poisons like that. If they actually were that unhealthy, it would only be a matter of time before they get called on it and their sales completely dry up while they have to pay off a lot of lawsuits. No, that would be a terrible way of making money.
3) Vaccines are weakening our immune system becase it doesn't actualy get a chance to fight diseases.
This is the kind of garbage that shows me this person doesn't have even a rudimentary understanding of how the immune system works. Specifically, it's not like a muscle; you don't have to work it out to keep it working.
4) Vaccines have toxins and heavy metals in them which make them dangerous
This one is actually partially true, but, again, a descent understanding of biology eases things up. Yes, there is a small amount of toxins in there, usually mercury. It's put in there to trigger an immune response, which brings in more memory cells and the memory cells are the ones that create immunity. The vaccine could still work without those, but we'd have to use larger doses. However, the other crazy part is this: they use incredibly small amounts of mercury in vaccines. Specifically, they use so little that you'd be more likely to get mercury poisoning from a tin of tuna than you would in a vaccine.
5) Vaccines use inactivated viruses that aren't always inactivated
Not really. All we need from the viru or bacteria is an idea of what their surface proteins are like and we use those in the vaccine. The memory cells learn to fight off the infection based on those protein markers.
He also linked me to some sites that promote his line of thinking. I'll post a couple of them here.
So, I wanted to see if they understood what they're talking about. Specifically, I just did a brief search for the phrase "lymphocyte." I figure, if they're talking about the immune system, they'd kinda have to say something about that, right?
Nope. That word was not used once in either article. Look for yourself. I did a slower search to see if parts of the phrase would be in there anywhere and the most I was able to get is that one of them talked about "lymph tissue" which, actually, just makes it sound worse (in that the phrase "lymph tissue" is, at best, ambigious).
Ugh. Why do people fall for garbage like this? Why do they critique, so harshly, well documnted scientific findings that conflicts with them but they so readily accept some crackpot blog post that could have been written by any nut?
Tell them to think back to the 1700's, imagine life before vaccinations & modern medical practice. Then ask them what they'd do with their average life expectancy of 35.
I believe it was Thomas paine who said
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead"
"Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken."
Sith code
December 4, 2013 at 10:18 am (This post was last modified: December 4, 2013 at 10:21 am by Doubting Thomas.)
(December 1, 2013 at 7:14 pm)TaraJo Wrote: Ugh. Why do people fall for garbage like this? Why do they critique, so harshly, well documnted scientific findings that conflicts with them but they so readily accept some crackpot blog post that could have been written by any nut?
Because they're conspiracy theorists. That's what they do. One of the rules of conspiracy theories is to disbelieve the authorities no matter what, and believe what fellow conspiracy theorists say no matter what.
(December 1, 2013 at 9:01 pm)futilethewinds Wrote: People are just terrified of the HPV vaccine because they think getting it is admitting your child might become sexually active at some point.
Those people (and there are a lot of them out there) are totally terrified of the idea of people having sex, let alone their own daughters. So of course a vaccine which makes sex safer is going to be demonized.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
(December 4, 2013 at 9:49 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: I believe it was Thomas paine who said
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead"
Indeed. Fortunately, most people haven't 'renounced' reason, rather they just don't apply it to the position in question (often for well-understood cultural & indoctrinal reasons). Those people can often be persuaded by reason, eventually.
December 4, 2013 at 2:04 pm (This post was last modified: December 4, 2013 at 2:13 pm by TaraJo.)
(December 4, 2013 at 10:33 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Just got some news that my sister is going vegan...why?...because of a youtube video!
People are stupid and will believe any shit IF it fits with their preconceived ideals...which are for the most part inacurate.
As for my sister? Meh She is married to a Roman Catholic Italian....need I say more?
Well, I'm going to be marrying a former Mormon; I just managed to turn him around, so maybe there's hope for your sister and her spouse.
As for veganism, it's not a bad diet, but you have to do it right. Vegan diets tend to be low in fat and cholestrol since those come mostly from animal products, but they have a difficult time with proteins, especially since the human body doesn't process plant protein as effeciently as it does animal protens. But a lot of the health benefit from vegan diets come from having to pay such close attention to what you eat. You can't go to a restraunt and order any little thing you want, you can't go to the store and buy random garbage loaded with who-knows-what. Anyone who pays that much attention to their diet is going to lose weight.
(December 4, 2013 at 10:18 am)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Because they're conspiracy theorists. That's what they do. One of the rules of conspiracy theories is to disbelieve the authorities no matter what, and believe what fellow conspiracy theorists say no matter what.
Interesting. I wonder what that says about Glen Beck, Alex Jones and everyone over at Faux News who keep saying Obama is a secret Kenyan/socialist/muslim/black supremist, in spite of all authorities and facts telling them otherwise?
"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
Well I don't know enough about the others to comment, but Alex Jones is a colossal shit stain that has less intellectual and journalistic integrity than a mousse in a vacuum chamber.
Oh I understand the complexities of a "vegetarian/ vegan" diet Tara-Jo.
My sister has always eaten a "Mediterranean" diet and has been careful of what she eats. Full of veggies low on fats and red meat. What is quite laughable is that the brother in law will still eat prosciutto ham eggs cheese .... in fact staying on his Mediterranean diet.
I think the claim is silly "we are on a vegetarian diet" because we watched a YouTube video. Now my niece has never been a fan of red meat, my daughter has never been a fan of very fatty foods (lamb, vintage cheese, pork fat and bacon) but as a person who suffers with thalassemia minor she craves red meat....all well and good as they both are eating to the nutritional demands of their bodies. To make this sensible action into a fad/ quasi religion is my main objection as is the anti-vaxer issue.
I guess I despair at the fact that humans cannot come to accept that "One size does NOT fit all"
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(December 4, 2013 at 5:42 pm)Optimistic Mysanthrope Wrote: Well I don't know enough about the others to comment, but Alex Jones is a colossal shit stain that has less intellectual and journalistic integrity than a mousse in a vacuum chamber.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Alex Jones never met a conspiracy theory he didn't like.
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
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