(December 24, 2013 at 3:25 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(December 24, 2013 at 3:19 pm)ronedee Wrote: Why can't He be what you've described here? He is for me.

He is, in a sense. Believing that he is not there isn't different from believing he was there and left us to our devices, at least in terms of how I live my life.

Well, I can see your point... But, I can also see your heart! Even from here. For whatever it means to you, Merry Christmas bud!

(December 24, 2013 at 3:31 pm)ronedee Wrote: Well, I can see your point... But, I can also see your heart! Even from here. For whatever it means to you, Merry Christmas bud!

Thanks Ron. Have an enjoyable and safe holidays, you and yours.

(December 24, 2013 at 3:50 am)Drich Wrote: Are you still pretending to be an atheist while you quote from your holy book?

Are YOU?

I'm an atheist, people know me through my posts.

I would not discount the psychological costs of atheism. To preserve the sense of a life worth living, you must continue living "as if" ontological naturalism was not true like you believe. You live as if you make choices while at the same time believing that everything you think, feel, and do follows deterministically. You also act as if the things you do have meaning while accepting that they have no ultimate significance. You must act as if there was such a thing as human dignity while believing that human life is a complex chemical reaction.

(December 22, 2013 at 6:03 pm)FreeTony Wrote: This is aimed at ex-Christians really. I've never been religious so have no idea what it is like.

I guess it is a constant struggle to belief in something for which there is no physical evidence. I guess this goes into the field of Cognitive Dissonance, something I know very little about. I imagine it to be a bit like "Doublethink" in 1984.

So what was it like? Were you constantly having doubts, or could you play mental gymnastics and ignore these for large periods of time? Or just assume it was true and not really think properly about it?

I'm a life-long atheist myself. It is difficult for me to understand how people can sincerely believe stuff that is obviously not true. I have noticed that some consider it to be a kind of accomplishment to come to a point at which -- through much effort -- they truly believe idiotic bullshit. This appears to be the case among converts. Born-ins have it easier -- they have been trained like bad dogs to believe stuff that is obviously false.

It is like Orwell's doublethink (cognitive dissonance) as well as compartmentalization (rational thought and logic apply to everything except their religion.)

As I understand from religious people, doubt is pretty much inevitable. They are trained to suppress doubts and when those doubts arise -- they are told to double down on everything religious. More church, more Bible study, more isolation, more repression -- avoid any outside influences.

I was raised Unitarian -- those who were raised in strict religious settings tell me that counts for nothing at all (intellectuals playing church.) I had made some honest attempts to believe in spiritual stuff, that led me to dabbling in a bunch of new-age codswallop. I was a miserable failure at religion -- and even "spiritual, not religious" mindset.

I suspect that there are some people who are naturally more susceptible to religious indoctrination than others. I have long suspected that a supernatural belief system is simply unavailable me because of my innate psychological make-up. I have tried -- really tried, and I can't believe in stuff that I know is not true. I just can't.

As I said, it's sometimes hard. Sometimes easy. For me, generally worth the effort.

I had a though come to mind in the loo today (it's where I do most of my thinking.) I'm horribly hooked on the game FTL. My boy, (5) reeeeeally wants to play. Trouble is its too complex for him so he's better off playing tyrian.

Now ftl is a better game, but he's not ready for it yet. Perhaps that what atheism is like. A higher belief system... Which some of us are not ready for yet. Perhaps goddless panther is trying to be engaged by tyrian, but can't quite get into it, where people like me can admire ftl but prefer a more basic pleasure.

(December 24, 2013 at 6:50 pm)Godlesspanther Wrote: I have tried -- really tried, and I can't believe in stuff that I know is not true. I just can't.

Religious people don't believe in things they "know is not true." You're being uncharitable here, with obvious purpose.

Maybe you won't believe things you know aren't true, but you appear to have no reluctance saying things that you know are not true.

(December 24, 2013 at 10:14 pm)rasetsu Wrote:

(December 24, 2013 at 6:50 pm)Godlesspanther Wrote: I have tried -- really tried, and I can't believe in stuff that I know is not true. I just can't.

Religious people don't believe in things they "know is not true"

Yeah.

Ummmm

Actually... That's only half true (I believe).

I like KNOW people who just don't care to examine their beliefs too closely so they don't have to find out if they're true or not. Like homeopaths who refuse to read research or alcoholics who are in denial about how much they drink. It's not so much that they know themselves to be alcoholics but believe they are OK, they just dodge the issue.

(December 24, 2013 at 11:18 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote:

(December 24, 2013 at 10:14 pm)rasetsu Wrote: Religious people don't believe in things they "know is not true"

Yeah.

Ummmm

Actually... That's only half true (I believe).

I like KNOW people who just don't care to examine their beliefs too closely so they don't have to find out if they're true or not. Like homeopaths who refuse to read research or alcoholics who are in denial about how much they drink. It's not so much that they know themselves to be alcoholics but believe they are OK, they just dodge the issue.

None of your examples conflict with what I said.

True.