Tav (and VOID) is using the classic get out clause... because he knows the logical answer is that there can be no evidence and that's what Christians logically accept - so he makes the observation that the question wasn't answered. Such is the coherence of his logical argument. He and VOID both insist on banging their heads on the wall when they've had the answer in pure logic but cannot see that the question has been answered. It's exactly like giving a fool a piece of string and telling them there's ice cream on the end and not the brick that keeps hitting them on the head. They keep pulling the string in the hope that against the evidence they plainly feel, there really must be ice cream there.

(February 22, 2010 at 4:23 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Tav (and VOID) is using the classic get out clause... because he knows the logical answer is that there can be no evidence and that's what Christians logically accept - so he makes the observation that the question wasn't answered. Such is the coherence of his logical argument. He and VOID both insist on banging their heads on the wall when they've had the answer in pure logic but cannot see that the question has been answered. It's exactly like giving a fool a piece of string and telling them there's ice cream on the end and not the brick that keeps hitting them on the head. They keep pulling the string in the hope that against the evidence they plainly feel, there really must be ice cream there.

The problem is that pure logic does not a true thing make... 0.o

(February 22, 2010 at 4:40 am)Saerules Wrote: The problem is that pure logic does not a true thing make... 0.o

Absolutely ( )

(February 22, 2010 at 2:39 am)Saerules Wrote:

Tav Wrote:I have faith that God exists objectively and cannot be tested scientifically because he needs our faith in his existence.

I don't see how fr0d0 is supposed to find any evidence if the above is indeed what he believes. If a god wanted "unreasonable" faith in his existence by his subjects... and a person thus has faith in said being because of 'intuition' (if you will?):

Then why would you even ask them what evidence or reasons they have for believing in such a being?

I'm asking about his personal experiences that led him to believe, since he has claimed in the past that he has had revealing experiences with the divine. I don't think fr0d0 believes something purely going on a gut feeling (intuition) with nothing else to back it up.

I'm asking what his subjective reasoning was, since it's his position that such a claim is not objective.

His. Personal. Experience.

That's all.

(February 22, 2010 at 2:39 am)Saerules Wrote:

Tav Wrote:Did you ever get around to showing the evidence that made you believe in God?

Of course he hasn't... if he did that would defeat the purpose of "God" as likely fr0d0 believes in him. What purpose? Well if you had faith in "God", you might very well know (Iow: the purpose would sound ridiculous and/or stupid to you and me, as it takes having faith in "God" to have any real meaning to begin with).

The most likely reason fr0d0 believes in "God" is that there is no reason to believe in him I'm not fr0d0 of course, but his response would probably be along those lines

Believing in something with no reason to believe in it is insane and pretty much the definition of delusion.

I don't think he's trying to contend that point at all. He's just dodging the question that has been asked 15 times before because it's what he does best.

---

(February 22, 2010 at 4:23 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Tav (and VOID) is using the classic get out clause... because he knows the logical answer is that there can be no evidence and that's what Christians logically accept - so he makes the observation that the question wasn't answered. Such is the coherence of his logical argument. He and VOID both insist on banging their heads on the wall when they've had the answer in pure logic but cannot see that the question has been answered. It's exactly like giving a fool a piece of string and telling them there's ice cream on the end and not the brick that keeps hitting them on the head. They keep pulling the string in the hope that against the evidence they plainly feel, there really must be ice cream there.

I'd love it if you shed some light on your own experiences and beliefs, rather than commenting on how others aren't consistent with the teachings of Jesus and throwing logical fallacies around as if they were on sale.

I'm not asking for anything objective nor scientific.

I am asking you what your personal experience was to make you believe in such a deity. Read: SUBJECTIVE.

Thanks.

(February 22, 2010 at 10:45 am)tavarish Wrote: I'm asking about his personal experiences that led him to believe, since he has claimed in the past that he has had revealing experiences with the divine.

Please show me where I made this claim.

We've already established that you can't accept that I have no superstitious mumbo jumbo to support my belief.

I HAVE HAD NO REVEALING EXPERIENCES WITH THE DIVINE. Though I doubt you'll notice this.

(February 22, 2010 at 11:03 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(February 22, 2010 at 10:45 am)tavarish Wrote: I'm asking about his personal experiences that led him to believe, since he has claimed in the past that he has had revealing experiences with the divine.

Please show me where I made this claim.

We've already established that you can't accept that I have no superstitious mumbo jumbo to support my belief.

I HAVE HAD NO REVEALING EXPERIENCES WITH THE DIVINE. Though I doubt you'll notice this.

Lets start over again for clarity

1) Why do you believe in the existence of a god(s) and why do you think it is reasonable to hold this belief?

2) Why do you believe that this god is the Christian God as opposed to all other concepts of god(s)?

(February 22, 2010 at 11:03 am)fr0d0 Wrote:

(February 22, 2010 at 10:45 am)tavarish Wrote: I'm asking about his personal experiences that led him to believe, since he has claimed in the past that he has had revealing experiences with the divine.

Please show me where I made this claim.

We've already established that you can't accept that I have no superstitious mumbo jumbo to support my belief.

I HAVE HAD NO REVEALING EXPERIENCES WITH THE DIVINE. Though I doubt you'll notice this.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-2822-page-27.html

fr0d0 wrote:

God, by his nature is not independently verifiable. Christians can verify God _personally_, and can confirm and test this with others adopting the belief.

What you cannot do is have proof of God that transfers from one person to another. It's a personal verification thing. Does that make it clear?

How do I know personally that my God is true? I test my notion of God every moment and it pans out. Did I dodge again?

My logical position is built upon in depth consideration of data presented. I can and have related those to you and continue to form and consider my logical position.

My data isn't in subjective experience, but in the logic I'm presenting to you. My subjective experience just serves to affirm that logic, and would be insubstantial to your consideration.



You have relayed no data other than circular logic that is self-validating and simply broken. You have spoken of no subjective experiences, even though I've asked you many times to illustrate your personal experiences, of which you said you have had in the quotes above. If proof of God needs personal verification, what is yours? Self-validating logic based on impossible objectivity?

(February 22, 2010 at 11:17 am)theVOID Wrote: 1) Why do you believe in the existence of a god(s) and why do you think it is reasonable to hold this belief?

I don't believe in the existence of God. I believe in God.

@ Tav

Read your post. I have stated that there are no subjective experiences that lead to belief in God. There cannot be verifiable proof of God. God does not need personal verification. Sure you get verification after the event but that does not enter into the question of belief.

[quote='fr0d0' pid='57191' dateline='1266855708']
[

I don't believe in the existence of God. I believe in God.

So does god exist or not?
I find myself a little confused by your statement Frodo.

How does God exist and how does that have any bearing on my belief?? The question attempts to draw focus from God and onto physical existence, which of course doesn't apply.