Z-one thanks for your reply.

I don't mind deGrasse Tyson at all. I'm in concert with his fact that we are made from stars. The idea that the universe is in us is breathtaking when you first hear it. The only issue I have is that it makes no sense of specifically human life to say that we are part of a universal scheme, when that universal scheme is utterly purposeless. The universe is definitely beautiful and worth considering more and more the more images and ideas we can get of it. However, it's just too inhuman out there to really think there's anything 'about us' in the sense of life and death, or in a socially or politically relevant sense. The universe doesn't tell you which way to vote, but it could convvince you never to act, becuase life is zero-sum. I hope this makes some kind of sense. I do get wobbly-kneed at the video, but for the subjectivity of human life what is there on offer?

I appreciate you love your family! I'm just pretty disgusted at the 'so what' atheism that people hold in the main, and I think that came across. Interesting that the first replies fit the stereotype I was painting quite perfectly!

Trying to generalize a group doesn't really work, especially a group like atheists, who don't have anything in common besides the fact that they don't worship any supernatural entities.

I'm not sure I get everything you're trying to say. I guess you should try to realize that people are individuals. Some good, some bad, some smart, some dumb. Whatever group someone belongs to, good people will do good, and bad people will do bad.

(December 31, 2013 at 3:54 pm)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote: Interesting that the first replies fit the stereotype I was painting quite perfectly!

It surprises you that you reap what you sow?

From what I've read, and from what I understand, it seems as if he isn't happy that the facts aren't what he wants them to be. And because atheists tend not to lie about whether or not there is evidence pointing towards a greater purpose, he therefore thinks it's our problem. If you want a religion so bad just go get one. Go ahead and be philosophically forward and stop coming here to disrupt our cave painting time.

(December 31, 2013 at 3:54 pm)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote: The idea that the universe is in us is breathtaking when you first hear it. The only issue I have is that it makes no sense of specifically human life to say that we are part of a universal scheme, when that universal scheme is utterly purposeless. The universe is definitely beautiful and worth considering more and more the more images and ideas we can get of it. However, it's just too inhuman out there to really think there's anything 'about us' in the sense of life and death, or in a socially or politically relevant sense. The universe doesn't tell you which way to vote, but it could convvince you never to act, becuase life is zero-sum. I hope this makes some kind of sense. I do get wobbly-kneed at the video, but for the subjectivity of human life what is there on offer?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that what you are talking about is your own desire for meaning in the universe. That you cannot imagine or accept that life and death are meaningless does not change whether or not they are.

The universe does not tell me how to vote (thankfully), and it cannot "convince me never to act". I believe the universe is incapable of caring whether or not I vote or act in any way.

I disagree that life is zero sum. Any individual life, yes, especially if you convince yourself not to act or interact with others. Collectively, life is clearly non-zero sum. It can build upon itself, resulting in culture which transcends every individual life upon which it depends.

(December 31, 2013 at 5:19 pm)Z-one Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that what you are talking about is your own desire for meaning in the universe. That you cannot imagine or accept that life and death are meaningless does not change whether or not they are.

The universe does not tell me how to vote (thankfully), and it cannot "convince me never to act". I believe the universe is incapable of caring whether or not I vote or act in any way.

I disagree that life is zero sum. Any individual life, yes, especially if you convince yourself not to act or interact with others. Collectively, life is clearly non-zero sum. It can build upon itself, resulting in culture which transcends every individual life upon which it depends.

Well yes and no. When people care about a purposive universe to attempt to cope with, for instance, meaningless suffering and death, it really means something quite personal to pull the rug out from under them with cosmology or what-have-you. From a completely neutral standpoint, we can have disinterested fact, but we are not neutral in this world. The apparent meaninglessness of existence has always been, well, apparent, but until very recently we have systems of thought we can use to console ourselves. 'Maybe there is a man in the sky because my child died' is not an affront to physics in my book. The question you raise as to the difference between the universe being imagined meaningless or in fact meaningless is concise but, I would argue (on the basis of human sympathy and kindness) unimportant.

I don't really agree with the idea that culture makes our lives non-zero sum. It certainly changes the scope and lasting effects of our lives that they are always linked together, but that does not alter the status of life itself as physically meaningless.

(December 31, 2013 at 3:05 pm)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote: I'm incoherent and cannot communicate my views. So far.
I'll wait for more posters who don't want to waste time.

What does the OP say? I didn't want to waste time, so I didn't read it.

(December 31, 2013 at 4:02 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Trying to generalize a group doesn't really work, especially a group like atheists, who don't have anything in common besides the fact that they don't worship any supernatural entities.

I'm not sure I get everything you're trying to say. I guess you should try to realize that people are individuals. Some good, some bad, some smart, some dumb. Whatever group someone belongs to, good people will do good, and bad people will do bad.

Oddly enough I find atheists, negatively construed (we only don't accept there isn't a God and that says nothing else about us), are pretty generalisable. Go figure huh.

"I guess you should try to realize that people are individuals. Some good, some bad..."

Yes I tried that. It also happens to be one of my mother's stock phrases, right before she says something racist!
To be serious, however, since language is social the chance that thoughts aren't in fact social is probably 0.

(December 31, 2013 at 4:02 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Trying to generalize a group doesn't really work, especially a group like atheists, who don't have anything in common besides the fact that they don't worship any supernatural entities.

Specifically gods. Technically, atheists *can* worship non-deity supernatural entities.

Quote:I'm not sure I get everything you're trying to say. I guess you should try to realize that people are individuals. Some good, some bad, some smart, some dumb. Whatever group someone belongs to, good people will do good, and bad people will do bad.

Good people do bad things, and bad people do good things... what one does it not necessitated by their nature.

---

(December 31, 2013 at 4:04 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: It surprises you that you reap what you sow?

Hey now, be friendly to my fellow trofriend!

(December 31, 2013 at 6:04 pm)Get me Rex Kramer! Wrote:

(December 31, 2013 at 4:02 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Trying to generalize a group doesn't really work, especially a group like atheists, who don't have anything in common besides the fact that they don't worship any supernatural entities.

I'm not sure I get everything you're trying to say. I guess you should try to realize that people are individuals. Some good, some bad, some smart, some dumb. Whatever group someone belongs to, good people will do good, and bad people will do bad.

Oddly enough I find atheists, negatively construed (we only don't accept there isn't a God and that says nothing else about it), are pretty generalisable. Go figure huh.

"I guess you should try to realize that people are individuals. Some good, some bad..."

Yes I tried that. It also happens to be one of my mother's stock phrases, right before she says something racist!
To be serious, however, since language is social the chance that thoughts aren't in fact social is probably 0.

So now you take after your mother in discriminating against a whole group of people, the huge majority of which you have never even set eyes on.

Great job. Telling us that really makes us want to learn from you.