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(January 1, 2014 at 2:59 pm)Drich Wrote: Created perfectly, elected to be sick, then provided a cure for those who want to be well.
The really sad part is that you can't see how this statement conflicts with this one:
Quote:"free will" as most understand it is a greek philosphy and not a biblical concept. Matter of fact we are told several times in the bible we are slaves who's master is sin. (Meaning we can not help but to sin.) That is why Christ died to provide attonement. In this life we are only free to make one real choice and that is to accept attonement or not. In essence to be freed from sin.
Since this was an argument against free will, you can hardly say we elected to sin, can you? Especially not when you just got through saying we can't help it, but then, I guess internal consistency never has been high on your priorities list.
That said, we atheists at least understand why we can't help but sin: the entire system is configured in such a way as to make the absence of sin impossible. And then you add original sin on top of that, to just really seal the deal, and yet you have the gall to say we elect to sin?
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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January 1, 2014 at 10:02 pm (This post was last modified: January 1, 2014 at 10:03 pm by Cinjin.)
(January 1, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Esquilax Wrote:
(January 1, 2014 at 2:59 pm)Drich Wrote: Created perfectly, elected to be sick, then provided a cure for those who want to be well.
The really sad part is that you can't see how this statement conflicts with this one:
Quote:"free will" as most understand it is a greek philosphy and not a biblical concept. Matter of fact we are told several times in the bible we are slaves who's master is sin. (Meaning we can not help but to sin.) That is why Christ died to provide attonement. In this life we are only free to make one real choice and that is to accept attonement or not. In essence to be freed from sin.
Since this was an argument against free will, you can hardly say we elected to sin, can you? Especially not when you just got through saying we can't help it, but then, I guess internal consistency never has been high on your priorities list.
That said, we atheists at least understand why we can't help but sin: the entire system is configured in such a way as to make the absence of sin impossible. And then you add original sin on top of that, to just really seal the deal, and yet you have the gall to say we elect to sin?
(December 31, 2013 at 12:20 pm)Drich Wrote: "free will" as most understand it is a greek philosphy and not a biblical concept. Matter of fact we are told several times in the bible we are slaves who's master is sin. (Meaning we can not help but to sin.) That is why Christ died to provide attonement. In this life we are only free to make one real choice and that is to accept attonement or not. In essence to be freed from sin.
This says we are fated to fail, and always make the wrong choice. But it also says we can choose correctly, by choosing to believe in Christ. Those two statements are irreconcilable.
Either we're fated to fail, and will fail to choose Christ, in which case God is punishing us for losing a rigged game.
Or your claim that we are fated to fail is in error.
If the bible does say both of these, then the bible is shown to be inconsistent and wrong.
January 3, 2014 at 11:28 am (This post was last modified: January 3, 2014 at 11:37 am by Drich.)
(January 1, 2014 at 9:55 pm)Esquilax Wrote:
(January 1, 2014 at 2:59 pm)Drich Wrote: Created perfectly, elected to be sick, then provided a cure for those who want to be well.
The really sad part is that you can't see how this statement conflicts with this one:
Created perfectly, we elected to be sick, then we choose to accept the cure or not... What is there to not
Quote:"free will" as most understand it is a greek philosphy and not a biblical concept. Matter of fact we are told several times in the bible we are slaves who's master is sin. (Meaning we can not help but to sin.) That is why Christ died to provide attonement. In this life we are only free to make one real choice and that is to accept attonement or not. In essence to be freed from sin.
Quote:Since this was an argument against free will, you can hardly say we elected to sin, can you?
'we' meaning man/Adam in the Garden. As He was the only one actually created. The rest of us are copies of copies of copies.
Quote:Especially not when you just got through saying we can't help it, but then, I guess internal consistency never has been high on your priorities list.
Quote:That said, we atheists at least understand why we can't help but sin: the entire system is configured in such a way as to make the absence of sin impossible.
indeed, but only through our efforts. We have been offered Freedom from sin or rather the consenquences of sin, because they have been placed on Christ have been placed on Christ.
[/quote] And then you add original sin on top of that, to just really seal the deal, and yet you have the gall to say we elect to sin?
[/quote] 'we' do not elect sin. Man was created perfect/Adam. Adam elected sin. then decided to make a copy of his sinful state and everyone since him has done the same. The only real choice we have is to elect attonement from this sin.
(January 1, 2014 at 11:56 pm)rasetsu Wrote: This says we are fated to fail, and always make the wrong choice. But it also says we can choose correctly, by choosing to believe in Christ. Those two statements are irreconcilable.
Not it doesn't. It says we only have one choice to make, as everything else we do is an accordance to being a slave to sin.
According to Paul in Romans 7 sin is not a choice even he struggled with it daily. If Paul a super Apstole could not break his chains then what hope do any of us have? None. The only one who can break this bondage to sin is Christ. Therefore the only real choice we have is to elect the attonement Christ offers.
(January 2, 2014 at 5:57 am)Zen Badger Wrote:
(January 1, 2014 at 2:59 pm)Drich Wrote: Created perfectly, elected to be sick, then provided a cure for those who want to be well.
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