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January 20, 2014 at 7:58 am (This post was last modified: January 20, 2014 at 9:36 am by Ben Davis.)
(January 17, 2014 at 12:41 pm)EgoRaptor Wrote:
(January 17, 2014 at 12:00 pm)Ben Davis Wrote: ...unless they are actually victims of direct racism or are put at a disadvantage as a result of institutionalised racism (e.g. white privilege).
Institutionalized racism is something of the past.
Have to disagree with you there, institutionalised racism is alive & well, simply not enshrined in law any more. The facts back it up. If you're non-caucasian in the UK, when compared to caucasians, you're:
- less likely to achieve as many qualifications
- more likely to have lower exam scores
- more likely to be bullied
- more likely to be unemployed
- more likely to earn less for the same job
- more likely to be refused a mortgage
- more likely to pay a higher interest rate for the same mortgage
- less likely to have savings
- more likely to have a lower interest rate on your savings
- more likely to be stopped and searched
- more likely to be arrested
- more likely to be imprisoned for an offense
- more likely to receive a harsher penalty for an offense
- more likely to die in custody
- less likely to receive good medical advice
- more likely to die in hospital
- less likely to run for public office
- less likely to be successful when running for public office
...the list goes on. The %'s are different for different ethnicities but the trends are clear as are the implications: there are institutional barriers to equality, not based on legal statutes.
Quote:What about black privilege & affirmative action?
All discrimination is bad including positive discrimination however given the massive list of inequalities, I'm not too worried about that at the moment. I think that's something which will clear itself up as the trust is earned by those of us who try to tackle the institutional causes of discrimination. Besides, it helps me check my privilege.
Political correctness doesn't allow whites to openly stand up for their own interests and the fear of being called a racist prevents open dialogue on the subject. I think society would be much healthier if we could admit that everyone is a racist to some extent, and move forward on that premises.
January 20, 2014 at 10:50 am (This post was last modified: January 20, 2014 at 10:51 am by là bạn điên.)
(January 20, 2014 at 7:58 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Have to disagree with you there, institutionalised racism is alive & well, simply not enshrined in law any more. The facts back it up. If you're non-caucasian in the UK, when compared to caucasians, you're:
Quote:- less likely to achieve as many qualifications
Why do you blame racism for this? Some non caucasians do better (like Hindus) some do worse (muslims and Afro Carribeans) why would we beleive that racism rather than the cultures of those non caucasians are to blame?
Quote:- more likely to have lower exam scores
See above..they do the same exams as everyone else
Quote:- more likely to be bullied
who by?
Quote:- more likely to be unemployed
If they refuse to work in school hardly unlikely
Quote:- more likely to earn less for the same job
Evidence for this. please and don;t link me to a campaign site that doesn;t actually provide evidence
Quote:- more likely to be refused a mortgage
If you earn less due to your not being qualified it is hardly surprising
Quote:- more likely to pay a higher interest rate for the same mortgage
as above
Quote:- less likely to have savings
Not my fault if they refuse to save
Quote:- more likely to have a lower interest rate on your savings
Banks give standard rates
Quote:- more likely to be stopped and searched
If you commit more crime then you are more likley to be stopped and searched
Quote:- more likely to be arrested
If you commit more crime you are more likley to be arrested
Quote:- more likely to be imprisoned for an offence
It all depends how many times they reoffend.
Quote:- more likely to receive a harsher penalty for an offense
as before it depends if the re offend more often
Quote:- more likely to die in custody
If you get arrested more then this naturally follows
Quote:- less likely to receive good medical advice
How so? They have the same doctors as everyone else.
Quote:- more likely to die in hospital
Rather than die at home? So what
Quote:- less likely to run for public office
That is their choice
Quote:- less likely to be successful when running for public office
If you restrict yourself essentially to one political party then its hardly sur[prising
Quote:...the list goes on. The %'s are different for different ethnicities but the trends are clear as are the implications: there are institutional barriers to equality, not based on legal statutes.
Not clear at all. The Barriers are mainly of their own making
Quote:All discrimination is bad including positive discrimination however given the massive list of inequalities, I'm not too worried about that at the moment.
You should be- it causes massive resentment.Thankfully it is illegal in the UK to promote a less qualified non white person over a more qualified white person
Quote: I think that's something which will clear itself up as the trust is earned by those of us who try to tackle the institutional causes of discrimination. Besides, it helps me check my privilege.
(January 20, 2014 at 7:58 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Have to disagree with you there, institutionalised racism is alive & well, simply not enshrined in law any more. The facts back it up. If you're non-caucasian in the UK, when compared to caucasians, you're:
Quote:- less likely to achieve as many qualifications
Why do you blame racism for this? Some non caucasians do better (like Hindus) some do worse (muslims and Afro Carribeans) why would we beleive that racism rather than the cultures of those non caucasians are to blame?
Quote:- more likely to have lower exam scores
See above..they do the same exams as everyone else
Quote:- more likely to be bullied
who by?
Quote:- more likely to be unemployed
If they refuse to work in school hardly unlikely
Quote:- more likely to earn less for the same job
Evidence for this. please and don;t link me to a campaign site that doesn;t actually provide evidence
Quote:- more likely to be refused a mortgage
If you earn less due to your not being qualified it is hardly surprising
Quote:- more likely to pay a higher interest rate for the same mortgage
as above
Quote:- less likely to have savings
Not my fault if they refuse to save
Quote:- more likely to have a lower interest rate on your savings
Banks give standard rates
Quote:- more likely to be stopped and searched
If you commit more crime then you are more likley to be stopped and searched
Quote:- more likely to be arrested
If you commit more crime you are more likley to be arrested
Quote:- more likely to be imprisoned for an offence
It all depends how many times they reoffend.
Quote:- more likely to receive a harsher penalty for an offense
as before it depends if the re offend more often
Quote:- more likely to die in custody
If you get arrested more then this naturally follows
Quote:- less likely to receive good medical advice
How so? They have the same doctors as everyone else.
Quote:- more likely to die in hospital
Rather than die at home? So what
Quote:- less likely to run for public office
That is their choice
Quote:- less likely to be successful when running for public office
If you restrict yourself essentially to one political party then its hardly sur[prising
Quote:...the list goes on. The %'s are different for different ethnicities but the trends are clear as are the implications: there are institutional barriers to equality, not based on legal statutes.
Not clear at all. The Barriers are mainly of their own making
Quote:All discrimination is bad including positive discrimination however given the massive list of inequalities, I'm not too worried about that at the moment.
You should be- it causes massive resentment.Thankfully it is illegal in the UK to promote a less qualified non white person over a more qualified white person
Quote: I think that's something which will clear itself up as the trust is earned by those of us who try to tackle the institutional causes of discrimination. Besides, it helps me check my privilege.
check your drivelage more like
Hardly. The fact that different ethnicities experience different treatment in situations where they shouldn't, if all ethnicities were being treated equally, is evidence of discrimination. In the case of ethnic discrimination, the root cause is not those who are discriminated against.
Well, privilages exist in every country. In Turkey, there exists a certain degree of Turkish privilage. The greatest privilage being that the country is named after the majority of the people that live here, namely, the Turks. So, should we, in the name of equality, change the name of the country to accomodate every fucking minority?
Best to call it Humania to be even more neutral in ethnic terms just so that a few minorities don't feel left out?
This is ridiculous. Of course the founding majority of every country will have certain priviliges over the minorities.
January 21, 2014 at 6:12 am (This post was last modified: January 21, 2014 at 6:13 am by là bạn điên.)
(January 20, 2014 at 12:16 pm)Ben Davis Wrote:
(January 20, 2014 at 10:50 am)là bạn điên Wrote:
Why do you blame racism for this? Some non caucasians do better (like Hindus) some do worse (muslims and Afro Carribeans) why would we beleive that racism rather than the cultures of those non caucasians are to blame?
See above..they do the same exams as everyone else
who by?
If they refuse to work in school hardly unlikely
Evidence for this. please and don;t link me to a campaign site that doesn;t actually provide evidence
If you earn less due to your not being qualified it is hardly surprising
as above
Not my fault if they refuse to save
Banks give standard rates
If you commit more crime then you are more likley to be stopped and searched
If you commit more crime you are more likley to be arrested
It all depends how many times they reoffend.
as before it depends if the re offend more often
If you get arrested more then this naturally follows
How so? They have the same doctors as everyone else.
Rather than die at home? So what
That is their choice
If you restrict yourself essentially to one political party then its hardly sur[prising
Not clear at all. The Barriers are mainly of their own making
You should be- it causes massive resentment.Thankfully it is illegal in the UK to promote a less qualified non white person over a more qualified white person
check your drivelage more like
Hardly. The fact that different ethnicities experience different treatment in situations where they shouldn't, if all ethnicities were being treated equally, is evidence of discrimination. In the case of ethnic discrimination, the root cause is not those who are discriminated against.
Number one you have given no references at all for these 'facts', You have just asserted them. Number two most of those are not about treatment but about achievement. If people have a culture that mitigates against work and towards crime then, again , its about how they treat the system not about how the system treats them.
For instance Pakistani origined policemen have 6 times the number of actions taken against them than the average. YOU would count that as discrimination but the reality is that the families of such policeman expect them to behave like policemen back in Pakistan and demand they act corruptly as they would 'back at home'.
Just put of interest is the Dominance of people of African ancestry in British athletics evidence of racial discrimination against white people in atheletics?
Quote:Number two most of those are not about treatment but about achievement.
Potential for achievement can be constrained by institutionalised discrimination (glass ceiling). In fact, achievement levels are used as a primary indicator when tracking root causes of such discrimination.
Quote:If people have a culture that mitigates against work and towards crime then, again , its about how they treat the system not about how the system treats them.
For instance Pakistani origined policemen have 6 times the number of actions taken against them than the average. YOU would count that as discrimination but the reality is that the families of such policeman expect them to behave like policemen back in Pakistan and demand they act corruptly as they would 'back at home'.
I wouldn't necessarily consider this specific circumstance to be discrimination but I would be extremely surprised if all such actions resulted from cultural differences; all UK PC's go through the same training and accreditation before being allowed on the streets. However, you're right that such factors need to be included in the root cause analysis.
Quote:Just put of interest is the Dominance of people of African ancestry in British athletics evidence of racial discrimination against white people in atheletics?
Not necessarily, it's likely evidence of certain roles being impressed on people of different ethnicity: if the vast majority of your positive role-models are athletes and there are sociological barriers to your entry to other careers, your propensity to become an athlete increases.
January 21, 2014 at 12:09 pm (This post was last modified: January 21, 2014 at 12:10 pm by là bạn điên.)
(January 21, 2014 at 10:01 am)Ben Davis Wrote: Potential for achievement can be constrained by institutionalised discrimination (glass ceiling). In fact, achievement levels are used as a primary indicator when tracking root causes of such discrimination.
So it can be constrained. So you have decided that since it is possible that it is the result of 'institutionalised racism that that MUST be the reason. If people are you using acheivement levels as evidence without taking culture into account then they are idiots or just ideological liars
Quote:I wouldn't necessarily consider this specific circumstance to be discrimination but I would be extremely surprised if all such actions resulted from cultural differences; all UK PC's go through the same training and accreditation before being allowed on the streets. However, you're right that such factors need to be included in the root cause analysis.
Finally...and yet they never are included since the ideology of the left insists that all cultures are equal and that any disparity MUST be because of evil white people
Quote:Not necessarily, it's likely evidence of certain roles being impressed on people of different ethnicity: if the vast majority of your positive role-models are athletes and there are sociological barriers to your entry to other careers, your propensity to become an athlete increases.
UTTER UTTER BULLSHIT. Every sports scientist knows this is unmitigated crap. Its about genetics. FACT: West Africans and their diaspora have a higher ratio of fast to slow twitch muscles than the norm, the same people have on average 20% more testosterone of course events from sprinting to boxing are going to be dominated by these people even in countries (like the UK) where african diaspora peoples are well under 1% of the population.
This role model nonsense has been pushed by neomarxist sociologists who know fuck all about sports science.
(January 21, 2014 at 12:09 pm)là bạn điên Wrote: So it can be constrained. So you have decided that since it is possible that it is the result of 'institutionalised racism that that MUST be the reason. If people are you using acheivement levels as evidence without taking culture into account then they are idiots or just ideological liars
Nonsense. When did I say that it was the only primary indicator or that only institutionalised discrimination is the cause? You misrepresent my position and your use of politically charged language makes me think that you're arguing against some construct in your head rather than my position. The facts is that discrimination is a cause. That is unarguable.
Quote:Finally...
What do you mean 'Finally'? I've always held this position.
Quote:and yet they never are included since the ideology of the left insists that all cultures are equal and that any disparity MUST be because of evil white people
Oh, that's right, you wanted to start your political diatribe without even asking me what my views are. I would never commit such a fallacious oversimplification and you ought to ask me about my politics before assume I'm ideological.
Quote:UTTER UTTER BULLSHIT. Every sports scientist knows this is unmitigated crap. Its about genetics. FACT: West Africans and their diaspora have a higher ratio of fast to slow twitch muscles than the norm, the same people have on average 20% more testosterone of course events from sprinting to boxing are going to be dominated by these people even in countries (like the UK) where african diaspora peoples are well under 1% of the population.
This role model nonsense has been pushed by neomarxist sociologists who know fuck all about sports science.
Now who's being ideological? Here we see exactly the type of oversimplification for which you were berating me earlier. It's not as simple as 'nature vs nurture', there's a complicity of factors which include both genetics and sociological pressures. That you dismiss the sociological because it disagrees with your politics is one of the reasons why you don't see the perpetuation of institutionalised discrimination. That blindness is also one of the mechanisms by which discrimination is perpetuated.
January 21, 2014 at 1:39 pm (This post was last modified: January 21, 2014 at 1:39 pm by là bạn điên.)
Quote:Now who's being ideological? Here we see exactly the type of oversimplification for which you were berating me earlier. It's not as simple as 'nature vs nurture', there's a complicity of factors which include both genetics and sociological pressures. That you dismiss the sociological because it disagrees with your politics is one of the reasons why you don't see the perpetuation of institutionalised discrimination. That blindness is also one of the mechanisms by which discrimination is perpetuated.
No I disagree because it is not based on any research at all but is 'surmised' by sociologists so it fits in with their ideology. It is not inductive but deductive. The Nature bit massively outweighs the nurture bit when it comes to pure power sports like sprinting. If developing skill is involved then obviously more cultural influences take place since you have to be in a position to develop the skills from an early age. In no way whatsoever can the predominance of West African Ancestored sprinters be cultural.
However you gave the reason above as cultural,you didn't mention genetics at all. That's the trouble with 'anti racists' they try and quash anyone bringing genetic factors into the equation-like those arseholes Rose, Lewontin and Kramer who's 'science for the people' force marxism onto science -with disasterous consequences.
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