(January 23, 2014 at 12:14 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: The problem with A/S/K is there is nothing you can't convince yourself is true with it.

maybe for a while but you good people are proof that this model is not sustainable for very long.

Quote:Try it on Krishna, same results. It's a psychological trick, a way to deceive yourself. It's exactly the kind of argument for God to be expected if he's not real.

Indeed, but again unless the person is completely delusional he or she will have to face facts.. I know that is your typical arguement against christianity and yes I do see the irony here, but the truth of the matter is there is substance beyond mindless unchallenging tradition and obediance.

Quote:I have to admire the sleight of hand, though, my hat's off to the con man who came up with 'do your very best to believe in what I'm selling and when you do, you'll know that what I'm selling is real' and figured out how to get people to actually try it.

Taking your hat off to God puts you 1/2 way there.. now all you got to do is follow through.

And as usual, Drich brings up the patently No True Scotsman argument that if the method fails, then it is on you for not asking or seeking long enough. Ad hoc away.

Drich, are you saying that Paul came to believe in God by some other means than the ASK method? I doubt he read Luke or whatever Gospel you got it from as a Jew.

I am saying Saul was a levitical priest and was born into faith. None of us have that going for us.

It was his faith/belief that had him persecute Christians. God saw the love and dedication Saul already had. He just refocused him. Which is the reason he was renamed Paul.

We are told to A/S/K to establish and maintain a relationship. Paul came into Christianity with a relationship via his pervious works and beliefs as Saul.

(January 23, 2014 at 10:13 am)Drich Wrote: I think the best arguement for the Existance of God is the existance of God, and you ablity to interact with him if you approach him as He has instructed in Luke 11. Pretty hard to argue with God on his existance. Maybe that is why you all choose to argue with us, and not A/S/K for him yourselves.

Translation: The best evidence for the existence of God is the secret friend you are taught to channel as a child growing up in a biblical family. The claim that the bible bears any relationship to what one experiences intra-psychically remains just that, a claim. Of course to seal the deal the people all around you will grow apoplectic if you dare challenge something so .. 'obvious'. Any concern with evidence is just an indication of how little you love God in a Christian home. People will love you if you just play along.

Quote:I am saying Saul was a levitical priest and was born into faith. None of us have that going for us.

And Luke Skywalker was the son of Darth Vader. Fiction is wonderful.

(January 23, 2014 at 9:54 am)ThePinsir Wrote: I'm wondering now, are there any sound logical proofs for a God's existence? Or more specifically, for Yahweh's? Have you ever heard a Christian give a logical argument for god's existence that knocked you off your feet?

Yes, but not in the way they intended. More like: hock:

(January 24, 2014 at 11:54 am)whateverist Wrote:

(January 23, 2014 at 10:13 am)Drich Wrote: I think the best arguement for the Existance of God is the existance of God, and you ablity to interact with him if you approach him as He has instructed in Luke 11. Pretty hard to argue with God on his existance. Maybe that is why you all choose to argue with us, and not A/S/K for him yourselves.

Translation: The best evidence for the existence of God is the secret friend you are taught to channel as a child growing up in a biblical family. The claim that the bible bears any relationship to what one experiences intra-psychically remains just that, a claim. Of course to seal the deal the people all around you will grow apoplectic if you dare challenge something so .. 'obvious'. Any concern with evidence is just an indication of how little you love God in a Christian home. People will love you if you just play along.

from birth to 20 years old I doubt if I saw the insides of a church more than a few dozen times.

My mom found Jesus when I was young, (appearently he was hiding in a Korean church that did not speak any English, except for the English class they taught.) I went to that one for a while, but wound up playing outside till lunch was served. (I was too white looking to play with the other kids.) so in fairly short order I just stopped going all together. Then my dad found Jesus while I was in middle school this was for about a year. This time I was a little too not white looking to play with the other kids.. Shortly there after they had a sermon he didnot like and he quit going to that church/any church. The pastor of that church lived close to us so he took us for a while till I started asking questions like if we die and out bodies turn back to dust then what does it matter if hell is fire? Can ghosts feel fire? He gave an answer, and I asked another, and another and another, till he stopped picking us up.

My experience with Christianity was to say the least was not a good one. Which by the time I finished high school I wanted to spit in God's eye. I still held to my theory that hell was nothing to fear, and if given the chance in this life or the next I would hock one in the eye of Jesus God or whom ever. It even got to the point where I challenged or dared God or anything else out there to do show me something, otherwise piss off. Then shortly there after I got to experience what the all the fuss of hell was about.

But that is not what stuck. It was the briefest of moments that I experienced The love God was offering. It was complete. I know that word does not describe much but it was everything I knew I wanted or was built for. Then in an instant I was being consumed by 'fire' which was not fire. I found out fire only describes the emotional state one is in when being consumed by the pit. It is a far greater experience to be consumed by 'hell fire' than fire but the emotional reaction is the same. You want it off you. Every nerve ending lights up and panic like you've never known sets in and consumes you. Truthfully, the small measure of sanity that allows us the gift of individuality, can't last long in that place...

As bad as all that was God's love left a far deeper imprint on me than the hell fire experience.

You are right and the vast majority believe because their families believe. If that is all they are given over to then that is all that is required from them. For those of you like me who need to know why, God offers answers. You just got to be willing to stick it out and keep asking.

Your atheism is apart of that process. I believe that christianity as a religion can help a certain person or even larger groups of people find God. But for the rest of us God needs to guide us in Himself. And apart of that is clearing the slate of the empty religious practices and doctrines. Which again brings you back to your disbelief. Some of you are content here. While others are not. Those who are content do not need to challenge or seek input/ask questions about something they do not believe in. Which means every single one of you on one level or another still wants to know about God for sure.

Understand it is with everything I got that I say there is nothing special about me. God did not offer me anything that he has not offered any of you. If you really want to know then ask God to show you with everything you've got and keep asking hell or high water till He shows you.

But, understand going I to this He expects that you be faithful to what you have been given. If not the faith he gave you will be taken from you and given to someone else.

I always love when Christians make up some bullshit story about their life prior to being saved. Oh I don't mean Drich is lying about the circumstances, but almost certainly about his behavior to God. You wanted to spit in the face of an omnipotent being you apparently already believed existed? You thought a place of infinite torture in fire wouldn't be so bad? I'm sorry, but you are so full of fundie bullshit I can hardly believed you managed to type it up without laughing at yourself.

I hear this sort of bullshit all the time from Christians (Muslims too). How they were so ridiculously idiotic prior to converting, how they wer a terrible prick (on to something here perhaps) and how God's saving grace changed them even though they didn't want to change.

Personally, I do think Drich is not far from the mark. Proof of the existence of God comes from God and not from speculations about him. Natural revelation that comes from reflection on the nature of reality only takes you about as far as a basic Spinoza-style pantheism or Berkeley's ultimate observer type of god.* Anything beyond that requires God to present Himself, either personally in the form of ASK or through the Word.

*My own belief is that both Spinoza and Berkeley got it half right. Swedenborg combines these into a God of two distinct but united principles: Divine Love and Divine Truth. Divine Love is the infinite potential of raw being. Divine Truth is the informing principle that shapes and guides that potential. This union is entirely consistent with our current scientific understanding of reality (foam + constants) and also satisfies the ancient dilemma between the persistence of being and constant change.

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(January 25, 2014 at 12:27 pm)MindForgedManacle Wrote: I always love when Christians make up some bullshit story about their life prior to being saved.

I would not be so quick to dismiss the testimony of Christians. Some of us recognize our need for a savior only after hitting our rock bottom. YMMV.