(February 11, 2014 at 1:07 am)EvolutionKills Wrote: Of course it isn't 'faith destroying', because faith doesn't rely on evidence

There is no way it would even be possible to prove the existence of God with scientific evidence so you just have to make do with some faith and reason. I know faith is a dirty word for you but I'm sure are plenty of things in life you have faith in.

Quote:Because if you actually had any fucking evidence, you wouldn't need faith

You have no evidence for atheism/materialism either it's what you have decide is true for various reasons. I don't really see why it's ok for you to do this but no-one else.

(February 11, 2014 at 7:22 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: You have no evidence for atheism/materialism either it's what you have decide is true for various reasons. I don't really see why it's ok for you to do this but no-one else.

Oh but there is ample of evidence for materialism: Theism makes some strong positive existence statements of very complicated and unseen things, and the burden of proof is on you. You can't just make up anything you want and then claim that just because it unfalsifiable, it is just as likely to be true as not. That's not how bayes theorem works

(February 11, 2014 at 7:22 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: You have no evidence for atheism/materialism either it's what you have decide is true for various reasons. I don't really see why it's ok for you to do this but no-one else.

I don't think you know what atheism is.

(February 11, 2014 at 8:10 am)Alex K Wrote: Oh but there is ample of evidence for materialism

There's evidence for material things but that could have all been created by God or is underpinned by an eternal non-material conscious or purpose driven force. Materialism who state that only the matter exists, the matter in itself has no purpose or intelligence but can somehow create intelligence when it is arranged in a certain form such as the human brain. You can't prove either scenario just by looking at the material stuff we can see though therefore it's a case of what you believe to be true.

Quote:Theism makes some strong positive existence statements of very complicated and unseen things

Materialism is the statement that physical matter/energy is eternal and is all there is exist and our existence is dependent upon matter arranged in a form. It's not something you could see and demonstrate to be true it's just what you believe is true. In sense you're really only doing the same thing. This is an idea/philosophy about the ultimate nature of existence.

Quote:and the burden of proof is on you.

You can't "prove God" and you can't prove your materialist philosophy either so it's a stalemate.

Quote:You can't just make up anything you want and then claim that just because it unfalsifiable

You're doing the same thing yourself even if you don't understand that you're doing it. You can't really claim atheism/materialism as the default either seeing as belief in the unseen aspect of reality seems to be as old as the human species itself.

(February 11, 2014 at 8:46 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: You're doing the same thing yourself even if you don't understand that you're doing it. You can't really claim atheism/materialism as the default either seeing as belief in the unseen aspect of reality seems to be as old as the human species itself.

Atheism is the default: you can say that belief in the unseen is as old a humanity, but that's not actually the claim you religious people are making, is it? If we lower our standards for the default position such that we're accepting unseen claims... which one? How can you possibly accept just one the default? Isn't that special pleading? Your choices there are either to accept mutually exclusive propositions as the default, which is absurd, or to accept one specific one (I know which you want ) but having no justification for disregarding the others, based on the vague criteria you've set in place.

The only logically consistent default position is disbelief.

Let me introduce you guys to my invisible raven Prometheus again. He is invisible and weightless, and in the afterlife he will eat your intestines, giving you unimaginable pain forever - unless you give me all your money. You cannot disprove Prometheus the raven! Do you really want to take the risk? Isn't there a 50% chance that he exists?

(*) Any theist who can tell me why this is not a convincing argument that they should give me all their money, gets a 10% discount!

(February 11, 2014 at 8:46 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: There's evidence for material things but that could have all been created by God or is underpinned by an eternal non-material conscious or purpose driven force.

For this claim to be anywhere near substantial, you must first be able to demonstrate the existence of god and rigorously define its attributes.

Quote:Materialism who state that only the matter exists, the matter in itself has no purpose or intelligence but can somehow create intelligence when it is arranged in a certain form such as the human brain. You can't prove either scenario just by looking at the material stuff we can see though therefore it's a case of what you believe to be true.

Nonsense. Heard of neurology?

Quote:Materialism is the statement that physical matter/energy is eternal and is all there is exist and our existence is dependent upon matter arranged in a form. It's not something you could see and demonstrate to be true it's just what you believe is true. In sense you're really only doing the same thing. This is an idea/philosophy about the ultimate nature of existence.

Again nonsense. Heard of science? That's us demonstrating this every day.

Quote:You can't "prove God" and you can't prove your materialist philosophy either so it's a stalemate.

Yet more nonsense. No-one has ever demonstrated god but this electronic conversation is proof of materialism.

Quote:You're doing the same thing yourself even if you don't understand that you're doing it.

Nope. You only think that because you misunderstand the subject matter and the facts which support it.

Quote:You can't really claim atheism/materialism as the default either seeing as belief in the unseen aspect of reality seems to be as old as the human species itself.

Belief in the supernatural has nothing to do with the fully supported and logical fact that atheism is the default position and 'material' causes are the most documented explanations for the facts (as opposed to 'immaterial' causes which have never been any kind of explanation for anything ever).

(February 11, 2014 at 7:22 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: There is no way it would even be possible to prove the existence of God with scientific evidence so you just have to make do with some faith and reason.

Science eventually reaches a consensus on those matters it is able to research and experiment upon. "Faith and reason" have not even led people who have the same basic beliefs to anything even approaching consensus. How many different Christian denominations are there? How many were there almost before the Christian church was even formed? It seems to me that using faith to drive your reasoning doesn't work and never has, otherwise there'd have been a consensus long ago.

The universe you describe as being a product of god is identical to the one I describe as NOT being a product of god. That would change in an instant if god stopped hiding in his metaphysical closet, even if it was just to help his believers get their stories straight.

Ha lol! we have no evidence for atheism! Go back to school

(February 11, 2014 at 7:22 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(February 11, 2014 at 1:07 am)EvolutionKills Wrote: Of course it isn't 'faith destroying', because faith doesn't rely on evidence

There is no way it would even be possible to prove the existence of God with scientific evidence so you just have to make do with some faith and reason. I know faith is a dirty word for you but I'm sure are plenty of things in life you have faith in.

A terrible attempt at equivocation, and you fucking know it. I have 'faith' that my parent's won't murder me in my sleep, built upon the evidence gathered from spending decades interacting with them. I believe, have 'faith', only insofar as the evidence supports.

It is a level of intellectual honesty you clearly are not capable of.

(February 11, 2014 at 7:22 am)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(February 11, 2014 at 1:07 am)EvolutionKills Wrote: Because if you actually had any fucking evidence, you wouldn't need faith

You have no evidence for atheism/materialism either it's what you have decide is true for various reasons. I don't really see why it's ok for you to do this but no-one else.

Oh fuck you, I know you have had your misrepresentation of what Atheism is rebuked multiple times here already; so kindly stop being a disingenuous shill. Atheism is a lack of belief in god concepts, that's it. It's really is a superfluous word, seeing as we don't have a specific label for those who doubt astrology, psychics, or auras.

If you must know, I'm an Evidentialist; so evidence is primary in determining what I believe in. Funnily enough it's exactly what you lack to support your bullshit.