(February 11, 2014 at 9:07 am)Ben Davis Wrote: For this claim to be anywhere near substantial, you must first be able to demonstrate the existence of god and rigorously define its attributes.

That's exactly what I'm doing, attempting to do anyway though I suppose these points concerning Gods necessary existence it won't get through to anyone who really seriously invested in this materialist/naturalist philosophy. I would make it clear that it is a philosophy and a metaphysical belief not a know fact or even something we can obtain evidence to support. In a lot of ways it is somewhat the equivalent to a belief in God but on the opposite side.

Quote:Again nonsense. Heard of science?

Yes and most of the greatest scientists in history were theists. Science doesn't and can't prove or disprove the existence of God.

Quote:Yet more nonsense. No-one has ever demonstrated god but this electronic conversation is proof of materialism.

Is evidence of rational minds understanding the rationally created universe to harness the certain natural forces and implement them into a practical use. The basis for all of our science comes from the fact that the universe is rationally understandable and can be harnessed in such a way. It is not evidence for materialism nor is their any conflict between this and Gods existence if anything you could say a rationally ordered and structured universe likely had it's origins in a rational creative intelligence.

Quote:Nope. You only think that because you misunderstand the subject matter and the facts which support it.

It's fine to have an opinion but it helps to mention what you're basing it upon specifically. Your opinion by itself doesn't hold any authority.

Quote:Belief in the supernatural has nothing to do with the fully supported and logical fact that atheism is the default position and 'material' causes are the most documented explanations for the facts (as opposed to 'immaterial' causes which have never been any kind of explanation for anything ever).

The universe is material and everything within in it is the result of naturally occurring physical processes determined by the laws of physics created by God. So you're correct but you haven't demonstrated how science "disproves God". You will still need some kind of basis for reality/reason why it exists.

(February 11, 2014 at 4:02 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: The universe is material and everything within in it is the result of naturally occurring physical processes determined by the laws of physics created by God.

Boom. You just became a materialist, by excluding that one phrase which you admit you have no evidence for. The evidence that the universe is material is all around you. You want materialism to mean something special, an all consuming statement that only the material exists. We don't need that to show that we have evidence of the existence of the material, and none for the existence of God. The evidence for the existence of the material is a billion-fold stronger than the evidence for God. Do we have evidence that this is all there is? No. But then nobody is claiming that. It's a straw man which you've dishonestly erected to create some sort of equality between your position and that of atheists who don't believe your claims. Your position and that of your straw man may be in some sense similar, but since it is a straw man of the atheist position, that counts for nothing, and your entire argument is a fallacy.

You keep misrepresenting what atheists claim because without lying about that, you've got nothing. Your whole position and belief rest on your lying about this. Go on, run to your stick figure god and have him forgive you for telling more lies. The rest of us will simply despise you for being corrupt and unethical and a liar.

(February 11, 2014 at 4:40 pm)rasetsu Wrote: Boom.

You can't just delete the reason and grounding for existence without putting something in its place. If you have no idea you may as just put God back.

Quote:
You just became a materialist, by excluding that one phrase which you admit you have no evidence for.

There is evidence of a certain kind backed by arguments that kill the living shit out materialism/atheism. Personally I think it's good enough though there is some room to entertainment doubt as I'm sure all believers have to some degree but this is a normal part of faith.

Quote:
The evidence that the universe is material is all around you.

Yes indeed but what made it? Where did come from? Why do we exist?

(February 11, 2014 at 4:48 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(February 11, 2014 at 4:40 pm)rasetsu Wrote: Boom.

You can't just delete the reason and grounding for existence without putting something in its place. If you have no idea you may as just put God back.

Precisely not, because it does not solve your problem! It isn't a more valid grounding for existence than just postulating existence directly in stead of God as a mediator between being and nothingness. God only ever seems to work as an answer because it compels you to stop questioning. It is a substitute for an answer you cannot get, because no one currently knows, can know, or even knows whether the question makes sense.[/align]

(February 11, 2014 at 4:59 pm)Alex K Wrote: Precisely not, because it does not solve your problem!

There's only a problem once you delete the entire reason for the existence of all the objects and processes that were described, it was set up very nicely but now you ruins it.





If something isn't broken you can just leave as it is.

Quote: It isn't a more valid grounding for existence than just postulating existence directly in stead of God as a mediator between being and nothingness.

It's existence (the universe, dimensions, natural laws, consciousness, matter/energy, time etc) that exists because something made/caused it all to get started at the beginning, and then you have a process of generation/formation. You see that's how everything that begins to exist exists, else it wouldn't exist. Otherwise you don't a have a reason for it all, but that's bit silly of course, so you will to have God there if you want to be reasonable.

Quote: God only ever seems to work as an answer because it compels you to stop questioning. It is a substitute for an answer you cannot get, because no one knows, can know, or even knows whether the question makes sense.[/align]

Quite the opposite once you understand the necessity of Gods existence this opens up a whole slew new of questions of what you can know about this God and how you go about your new life in relationship to this God. While you have the Bible of course there are thousands of books on this subject and new ways of deepened your understanding of his living presence in your life. Science of course is unaffected so we can still make all the usual discoveries applying the standard method. So clearly you don't stop questioning anything you just understand what you already know far better within the context of it as a creation of the eternal God.

SoC,

Again, why do you think that God is a valid reason which does not need a reason itself? Why would it need less justification and reason-to-be than the universe by itself?

Different problem: you talk of a process of generation of existence
That is basically nonsense because a process is a temporal change of the state of something. If the universe doesn't exist, there is no time against which the concept of change or creation can be defined. The sentence is therefore nonsensical.

Enough of all these vicious-circle roundabout arguments.

Does God exist?

One of the 'yes' or 'no' answers must hold.

Note well that truth is the light of the mind, with a clear medium of expressing it; while untruth is overladen with the darkness of the mind with a labyrinth of winding verbosity.

I am presently, in a separate thread, taking up the gauntlet in the defence of the fact of actual existence of God, but in a clearly intelligible format and style, as plain as sunday-school lesson for all and sundry to comprehend - after all we are all of us children of the universe.

Good grief, charles, your style is tedious.

(February 11, 2014 at 5:31 pm)Alex K Wrote: SoC,

Again, why do you think that God is a valid reason which does not need a reason itself?

God is the eternal context or the sphere into which everything that exists begins to exist and is from then on sustained within existence. Without God you can't have anything that exists because everything depends on being started by something and you would end up with an infinitude of things that have to happen in order for anything else to ever happen. God also accounts for the fine tuning/immense complexity and order of course. So you have killed two birds with one stone by accepting his existence, which as you see will have to be real as you can't really argue with the logic.

Quote: Why would it need less justification and reason-to-be than the universe by itself?

The universe is a finite entity with a point of creation and seeing as literal non-existence can't effect or do anything on account of not existing something that exists will have to have caused the universe to exist. Even if it's a cycle something as to contain and cause the cycle to operate, this is along the lines of what the Hindus believe regarding the universe.

Quote:Different problem: you talk of a process of generation of existence
That is basically nonsense because a process is a temporal change of the state of something. If the universe doesn't exist, there is no time against which the concept of change or creation can be defined. The sentence is therefore nonsensical.

Time as we experience only exists as a part of the universe as we experience but this didn't always exist therefore time is also the production of something that causes time to exist. Whatever this is would of course have to be placed beyond time, space and the physical universe. This is the cause of the universe and the reason why the universe exists. If you remove this you remove the entire foundation and the whole structure collapses. It's not as simple matter of just removing the word from the sentence as though it's something trivial that you don't need.

(February 11, 2014 at 6:01 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote:

(February 11, 2014 at 5:31 pm)Alex K Wrote: Again, why do you think that God is a valid reason which does not need a reason itself?

God is the eternal context or the sphere into which everything that exists begins to exist and is from then on sustained within existence.

Prove it or get the fuck out.