Hey Sword, I know you're busy talking to the Hell-bound but I'm feeling left out of this conversation.

We were discussing the Bible on slavery. I offered you multiple examples of chapter-and-verse where both the OT and the NT endorse the practice and even a quote where Jesus gives the nod to beating slaves. I asked you for chapter-and-verse where I could find anything to support your assertion that it was Christianity that led to the abolition of slavery.

I'm deeply curious, so if you could get back to me, that would be great.

We were discussing the Bible on democracy, equality and rights. I provided chapter-and-verse where the Bible endorses the divine right of kings and the subjugation of women. Even Jesus has his moment where he endorses racism (the "Canaanite Dogs" story). I asked you to provide chapter-and-verse where I could see support for your assertion that Christianity promotes freedom and equality.

I'm deeply curious about that too, so please get back to me.

And then there's your whole touchy-feeley-New-Agey thinking on the morality of Jesus being in every one of us, including the unsaved. I was curious about your alternate Christianity, and I think this is a reasonable question:

If the morality of Jesus is in all of us, what do we need religion for?

This, of course, leads to other questions. Couldn't atheists just follow their conscience? And if by following their conscience, atheists are doing God's Will, then does that mean they can attain salvation? If if that's the case, isn't Christ's sacrifice in vein?

If you could get back to me, that would be wonderful.

So many phony "Christians" on this forum eventually ignore me as an embarrassment but they can't deny I'm the one that's actually reading this book and getting my direction from it.

Quote:We could have done this without being made sinful by nature, if god wasn't so bad at his job and too proud to recognize it.


The only way to do that is to remove our freewill.

If that were true, I guess Jesus and Mary didn't have free will. Nor will any of us in heaven, since we'll supposedly be sinless in heaven. If we can't have free will in heaven, and I don't see how we could and remain in heaven, then what's the point of having it at all? Why would any of us consider it a good thing?

(February 13, 2014 at 10:41 am)YahwehIsTheWay Wrote: Hey Sword, I know you're busy talking to the Hell-bound but I'm feeling left out of this conversation.

It's not for me say who is and isn't going to Hell but no-one particularly has to that's entirely optional if you're determined to reject God. If you still follow the moral values Christ taught to some degree you likely haven't really rejected God you're just a bit confused.

Quote:We were discussing the Bible on slavery. I offered you multiple examples of chapter-and-verse where both the OT and the NT endorse the practice and even a quote where Jesus gives the nod to beating slaves. I asked you for chapter-and-verse where I could find anything to support your assertion that it was Christianity that led to the abolition of slavery.

Christian values lead to the abolition of the slave trade and you yourself have Christian values if you believe slavery is wrong. What matters is the fruits of the overall message not the what passage says what about what. It was written by real people in history and slavery was perfectly normal for all cultures back then.

Quote:We were discussing the Bible on democracy, equality and rights. I provided chapter-and-verse where the Bible endorses the divine right of kings and the subjugation of women.

That's what they believed at the time but Jesus taught something radically different and that is the basis of Western civilization today. In any case I think it's only the Kings of Israel that were meant to be divinely appointed though they're all gone now.

Quote: Even Jesus has his moment where he endorses racism (the "Canaanite Dogs" story).

The parable of the Good Samaritan doesn't support racism seeing as the Samaritans were the hated minority at the time. Perhaps he was testing her resolve or interested to see what she would say or something.

Quote:I asked you to provide chapter-and-verse where I could see support for your assertion that Christianity promotes freedom and equality.

I'm not going to post entire New Testament but even the Old Testament supports this to some degree. You can read it yourself.

Quote:And then there's your whole touchy-feeley-New-Agey thinking on the morality of Jesus being in every one of us, including the unsaved. I was curious about your alternate Christianity, and I think this is a reasonable question:

It's not alternative Christianity but traditional ancient Christianity. There are many books out there you can read about this and none of them are "New Age".

Quote:If the morality of Jesus is in all of us, what do we need religion for?

We don't particularly that's kind of the point. But it has a cultural and social function.

Quote:This, of course, leads to other questions. Couldn't atheists just follow their conscience?

Yes but they may end up believing it's their own opinion or morality is whatever you decide it to be or whatever you can get away with without consequence. It's good to have some kind of a grounding in something beyond yourself.

Quote:And if by following their conscience, atheists are doing God's Will, then does that mean they can attain salvation?

Whenever you want to accept Christ you can, you can do it now, in a million years from now or whenever.

Quote: If if that's the case, isn't Christ's sacrifice in vein?

The truth has been revealed to you and what you decide to do is up to you.

Quote:So many phony "Christians" on this forum eventually ignore me as an embarrassment but they can't deny I'm the one that's actually reading this book and getting my direction from it.

You really are getting your direction from though. The moral values you have are the values you will find in there.

[/quote]

(February 12, 2014 at 4:20 pm)YahwehIsTheWay Wrote: If you need pictures to underscore the Bible verses on slavery, here you go:

Quote:Funny how they quoted 1 Cor 7:21 , 24 and left out 7:22,23 which tells the slave to gain his freedom if he can do so.
[quote]Jesus often used slaves in his parables and gave the nod to beating them:
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
[quote]
"Servant", not "slave". They did also beat servants in those days. (Sob.)

But perhaps you know of some passages that call for the abolition of slavery. Do tell.[quote]
None of the verses you referenced call for the institution of slavery, but they acknowledged that christians lived with it.

...and all this time I thought it was that heathen deist Lincoln backed by hundreds of thousands of Union soldiers but hey, obviously I was mistaken.[quote]

You're saying Lincoln was a deist? What's your source on that?

Certainly women aren't equal to men in the eyes of Jesus. Neither are slaves equal to their masters. But again, I invite you to cite me chapter and verse.[quote]

We're all equal in God's eyes, but we have different roles, just as Jesus was obedient to the Father even though they were equally God.

America is the only developed nation where Christianity has any kind of a foothold. In all other developed countries, atheism is ascendant. The more these scientists run amok, the more it is at the cost of the power of Christ. In what alternate dimension do you live where the developed world is more authentically Christian?

I agree with you partially on this one. Even in America most Christians are not authentically Christian. It's not because of scientific discoveries, it's because when when become wealthy they become proud and think they can rely on themselves. I don't know of any scientific discoveries that disprove the existence of God or disprove the bible.

That 1 Cor 7 part is a bit confusing. It says to stay as you are, then to free yourself if you can, but repeats the line about staying where you are. I'll definitely agree with the part about freeing yourself from slavery if possible, but not about staying where you are if where you are is a shitty life. If you're property, you should free yourself. If you're poor, you should try to become richer. Any line about being a slave of christ is just as off putting about being slave to someone else.

ooknnn

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(February 13, 2014 at 10:41 am)YahwehIsTheWay Wrote: Hey Sword, I know you're busy talking to the Hell-bound but I'm feeling left out of this conversation.

We were discussing the Bible on slavery. I offered you multiple examples of chapter-and-verse where both the OT and the NT endorse the practice and even a quote where Jesus gives the nod to beating slaves. I asked you for chapter-and-verse where I could find anything to support your assertion that it was Christianity that led to the abolition of slavery.

I'm deeply curious, so if you could get back to me, that would be great.

We were discussing the Bible on democracy, equality and rights. I provided chapter-and-verse where the Bible endorses the divine right of kings and the subjugation of women. Even Jesus has his moment where he endorses racism (the "Canaanite Dogs" story). I asked you to provide chapter-and-verse where I could see support for your assertion that Christianity promotes freedom and equality.

I'm deeply curious about that too, so please get back to me.

And then there's your whole touchy-feeley-New-Agey thinking on the morality of Jesus being in every one of us, including the unsaved. I was curious about your alternate Christianity, and I think this is a reasonable question:

If the morality of Jesus is in all of us, what do we need religion for?

This, of course, leads to other questions. Couldn't atheists just follow their conscience? And if by following their conscience, atheists are doing God's Will, then does that mean they can attain salvation? If if that's the case, isn't Christ's sacrifice in vein?

If you could get back to me, that would be wonderful.

So many phony "Christians" on this forum eventually ignore me as an embarrassment but they can't deny I'm the one that's actually reading this book and getting my direction from it.

Not one of your scripture references shows the bible endorsing slavery, but telling slaves to live exemplary christian lilves while under the yoke of slavery. One of your picture references cited 1 Cor 7:21, 24 and conveniently left out 22-23 which told the slaves to gain their freedom if they could do so. You said Jesus often upheld slavery in his teachings, but actually he talked about servants , not slaves. Quote me one verse in which he referred to slaves instead of servants. You're really going to have to show me your reference for Lincoln being a deist. Finally, I'd like to say that I agree that the western developed world is going atheist, but it's because when people become wealthy they have a tendency to become proud and believe they do it all by themselves. Science hasn't disproved God or the bible. And please don't tell me the bible says the world is flat because it uses metaphors.

So Sword, pretty much you just make up your religion as you go along, based on what makes you feel good, right?

What about that bible verse that tells you how to trick your fellow jew into being your slave forever.

Quote:We're all equal in God's eyes, but we have different roles, just as Jesus was obedient to the Father even though they were equally God.

How can you spout such absurd blather with a straight face?

(February 13, 2014 at 3:15 pm)YahwehIsTheWay Wrote: So Sword, pretty much you just make up your religion as you go along, based on what makes you feel good, right?

No, it would help if you read some books outside of atheism or Ray Comfort or whatever. The proper stuff, get yourself a bit a decent theological education. At the very least you'll be able to make a more informed defense of atheism/attack on Christianity. We're not just talking modern day books that have made concessions to the secularist worldview either there is material from the early middle ages and ancient antiquity that are worth checking out. People would never have believed this stuff if it was the kind of garbage you believe it to be.