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(February 27, 2014 at 11:45 am)Huggy74 Wrote: This explains it.
Galatians 3:
23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
So, if I understand correctly, Jesus says that until heaven and earth pass, the law and the prophets won't change, Paul says you just gotta get baptized, none of it counts anymore. Who's wrong?
Also, if you actually read verse 28, you'll see that it actually belies your point, assuming you are highlighting that to show that the Bible does not condone slavery. Taking it the way you are (apparently) taking it, the NT also gets rid of Jews and Gentiles, males and females. No, it's saying that now anyone can be saved through Jesus, you don't have to be a free Israelite any more.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
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February 27, 2014 at 1:01 pm (This post was last modified: February 27, 2014 at 1:02 pm by Ben Davis.)
(February 25, 2014 at 10:56 pm)ThePinsir Wrote: I've started a new tradition of sorts. I call it "Thor's Day". Every Thursday I post s lot of atheism-related stuff on Facebook. I'm trying to stick to a theme each week, too. Last week was misogyny. I posted a few verses that said women had to submit, yada yada, you've all heard it before.
Expect to lose some 'friends'!
Quote:Of course, a lot of Christians tap danced the Hell out of it. And supposedly some stuff was mistranslated (a wonder that no "good" verses are ever mistranslated lol). So, to try to stay intellectually honest, I promised I'd do more research before next Thor's Day's topic.
There's always mistranslation or misinterpretation: there are as many of them as there are christians who will tell you about them. It's standard apologetics. The most effective responses question how any of the 'infallible' word of god can be trusted if god can allow mistranslations in it. There's no need to get in to the specifics that will likely derail your thread: do you really care if Aslan's mane was golden yellow or golden brown?
Quote:This Thursday I want to do slavery... what are the typical Christian defenses of biblical slavery, and what's the best way to counter them?
The 'indentured servitude' and 'prisoners of war' defenses are common examples of the 'cultural context' arguments you're likely to face: you've seen one on this thread. My response is generally this:
1. You agree that god's law mandates, condones and legislates slavery
2. You think this makes it okay for human beings to be owned as property
3. Your morals have been horrifically skewed by biblical teachings
It is morally wrong to own another human being as property, for any period of time, for any reason: there is no context in which it becomes right. Consequently anyone who opposes slavery on moral grounds is more moral than yahweh.
Doesn't the Bible say that you can beat a slave to within an inch of their life and that's ok, but if they do die, hey, no problem, you just pay a little fine and go along your business?
"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
(February 25, 2014 at 10:56 pm)ThePinsir Wrote: I've started a new tradition of sorts. I call it "Thor's Day". Every Thursday I post s lot of atheism-related stuff on Facebook. I'm trying to stick to a theme each week, too. Last week was misogyny. I posted a few verses that said women had to submit, yada yada, you've all heard it before.
Of course, a lot of Christians tap danced the Hell out of it. And supposedly some stuff was mistranslated (a wonder that no "good" verses are ever mistranslated lol). So, to try to stay intellectually honest, I promised I'd do more research before next Thor's Day's topic.
This Thursday I want to do slavery. I'm wondering if, by chance, any of you (believer or heathen alike) are aware of any mistranslations or misinterpretations of the "slavery verses"? I plan to do some research on my own, but figure this is a good place to start.
Also, what are the typical Christian defenses of biblical slavery, and what's the best way to counter them?
If Ima be "that guy" on FB, I wanna have my facts straight and prepared for anything.
Thanks a million for any good replies.
slavery comes in many forms, physically or spiritually. For instance everyone issued a birth certificate is enslaved.
so what point is there to arguing about what the bible says about slavery when you are a slave(assuming you have a birth certificate)yourself.
This is some really fucked up rightwing nonsense that is related to the 'freeman on the land' bullshit.
(February 27, 2014 at 12:32 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:
(February 27, 2014 at 11:45 am)Huggy74 Wrote: This explains it.
Galatians 3:
23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
So, if I understand correctly, Jesus says that until heaven and earth pass, the law and the prophets won't change, Paul says you just gotta get baptized, none of it counts anymore. Who's wrong?
Also, if you actually read verse 28, you'll see that it actually belies your point, assuming you are highlighting that to show that the Bible does not condone slavery. Taking it the way you are (apparently) taking it, the NT also gets rid of Jews and Gentiles, males and females. No, it's saying that now anyone can be saved through Jesus, you don't have to be a free Israelite any more.
Getting a little off topic but i'll try to explain.
Only those "in Christ" are no longer under the law. The laws only purpose is to put you under condemnation and show that you are a sinner, it has no saving qualities. Think of it as a policeman, if you are accused of breaking the law, it's only job is to bring you to the judge.
Ezekiel 18:20-23
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
As you can see the penalty for sin is death (eternal separation from God), so either you had to die or something died in your place. This is where the sacrificial lamb comes in, except that the blood of an animal had no power to change the nature of the offender. in other words the sinner still had the same desire to sin that got him in trouble in the first place.
John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
So now comes Jesus Christ who being born in a stable, symbolizing him as a lamb, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17). His blood has the power to transform the sinner removing the desire to sin, by having his nature replace the nature of the sinners.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So now when the sinner accepts Christ and recieves his spirit , he exists in a "state of grace" (unmerited favor), because now when God looks at Him he doesn't see the sinner he sees Christ (perfection). Which means he cannot be judged under the law, because he is found blameless.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
This btw is exactly what the Jews celebrate during their Passover, being passed over for judgement. But how the Jews and Jesus tie in together is another topic.
(February 27, 2014 at 12:32 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote: So, if I understand correctly, Jesus says that until heaven and earth pass, the law and the prophets won't change, Paul says you just gotta get baptized, none of it counts anymore. Who's wrong?
Also, if you actually read verse 28, you'll see that it actually belies your point, assuming you are highlighting that to show that the Bible does not condone slavery. Taking it the way you are (apparently) taking it, the NT also gets rid of Jews and Gentiles, males and females. No, it's saying that now anyone can be saved through Jesus, you don't have to be a free Israelite any more.
Getting a little off topic but i'll try to explain.
Only those "in Christ" are no longer under the law. The laws only purpose is to put you under condemnation and show that you are a sinner, it has no saving qualities. Think of it as a policeman, if you are accused of breaking the law, it's only job is to bring you to the judge.
Ezekiel 18:20-23
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
As you can see the penalty for sin is death (eternal separation from God), so either you had to die or something died in your place. This is where the sacrificial lamb comes in, except that the blood of an animal had no power to change the nature of the offender. in other words the sinner still had the same desire to sin that got him in trouble in the first place.
John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
So now comes Jesus Christ who being born in a stable, symbolizing him as a lamb, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17). His blood has the power to transform the sinner removing the desire to sin, by having his nature replace the nature of the sinners.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So now when the sinner accepts Christ and recieves his spirit , he exists in a "state of grace" (unmerited favor), because now when God looks at Him he doesn't see the sinner he sees Christ (perfection). Which means he cannot be judged under the law, because he is found blameless.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
This btw is exactly what the Jews celebrate during their Passover, being passed over for judgement. But how the Jews and Jesus tie in together is another topic.
This is just a mandate for vicarious redemption: utterly immoral as it divorces us from the responsibility and accountability we have for our actions. None of that makes it okay for christians either to own people as property or to deny that god mandated that people should be owned as property. How do you not see this?
(February 27, 2014 at 11:18 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Getting a little off topic but i'll try to explain.
Only those "in Christ" are no longer under the law. The laws only purpose is to put you under condemnation and show that you are a sinner, it has no saving qualities. Think of it as a policeman, if you are accused of breaking the law, it's only job is to bring you to the judge.
... So, let me see if I've got this right: the biblical laws laid down in the bible don't apply to christians, only to people who aren't christian... and therefore do not believe the laws were ever set down by god? That's... that's what you're saying, here?
And you don't see how utterly redundant that is?
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
February 28, 2014 at 8:20 am (This post was last modified: February 28, 2014 at 8:25 am by Huggy Bear.)
(February 28, 2014 at 6:31 am)Ben Davis Wrote: This is just a mandate for vicarious redemption: utterly immoral as it divorces us from the responsibility and accountability we have for our actions. None of that makes it okay for christians either to own people as property or to deny that god mandated that people should be owned as property. How do you not see this?
Let me ask you something. Have you ever....
told a lie
stolen anything
Desired a woman sexually
Had premarital sex
Cheated someone
spoke evil of someone (name calling, gossip ect.)
that's all i can come up with off the top of my head, but if the answer is "yes" to any of those, then you are guilty under the law and deserving of death. But Instead of death, eternal life is freely given to anyone that wants it, and you somehow find that immoral.
Where is this mandate you speak of, I clearly posted where is was illegal to force someone into slavery against their will. Since question deals with ancient Jewish law which i am unfamiliar with, I'll just post a snippet from a Jewish website on the subject. (source http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTM...04-01.html)
Question 1: Does Halacha Permit Jews to Own Slaves?
First, note that "Slavery" in the Torah generally refers to temporary indentured servitude to one's creditor. Such slavery was permitted under Jewish law. However, the treatment of Jews towards their slaves was much more humane than that of the surrounding culture, for a key element of Judaism is to remember that Jews were once slaves in Egypt (in fact, this is the central theme of the holiday of Pesach).
In Judaism, the slave was protected. Exodus 21:2-11 defines the rights of the servant. Quoting from the Hertz Penatateuch and Haftorahs:
Slavery, as permitted by the Torah was quite different from Greek and Roman Slavery, or even the cruel system in some modern countries down to our own times. In Hebrew law, the slave was not a thing, but a human being; he was not the chattel of a master who had unlimited power over him. In the Hebrew language, there is only one word for slave and servant. Brutal treatment of any slave, whether Hebrew or heathen, secures his immediate liberty.
Jewish law required that a slave could go free in the seventh year of service (Exodus 21:2), although his family would not be freed; although if he came into servitude with a wife, that wife would also be freed. The slave could, however, indicate that they perferred bondage to freedom. Every fiftieth year (the "Jubilee"), the slaves with their families would be emancipated, and property (except house property in a walled city) would revert to its original owner. (Lev XXV:8-55).
In Judaism, there is also the concept of an "Eved Canani", a non-Jewish slave, who is the property of a Jew, as is discussed in Vayikrah 25:46. This concept of slavery is nothing like slavery that occurred in America to the Negroes. The slaves were not kidnapped, but rather were purchased from themselves; i.e., they were offered a sum of money, or guaranteed shelter and food, in exchange for becoming slaves. The obligation to treat your slave humanely applies to both Jewish and non-Jewish slave, as does the obligation to make sure they have all necessary comforts, even at the expense of their master's own comfort (e.g., if there are not enough pillows for all, the master must provide his slaves with pillows before himself).
(February 28, 2014 at 6:38 am)Esquilax Wrote: ... So, let me see if I've got this right: the biblical laws laid down in the bible don't apply to christians, only to people who aren't christian... and therefore do not believe the laws were ever set down by god? That's... that's what you're saying, here?
And you don't see how utterly redundant that is?
I'm sure you're familiar with the story of Noah. He spends 120 years telling everyone about the coming flood (judgement) and to get in the Ark. Except no one believes him and they die.
The same scenario is repeating itself except this time the Ark is Jesus Christ. Judgement is coming and salvation is free to all that will receive it. If you choose not to believe, that's on you.
(February 28, 2014 at 8:20 am)Huggy74 Wrote: I'm sure you're familiar with the story of Noah. He spends 120 years telling everyone about the coming flood (judgement) and to get in the Ark. Except no one believes him and they die.
The same scenario is repeating itself except this time the Ark is Jesus Christ. Judgement is coming and salvation is free to all that will receive it. If you choose not to believe, that's on you.
So god wants everyone to go to heaven and to have a personal relationship with him, but he's willing to use only methods that have been proven ineffective to do so. Gotcha.
Your god is a moron.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
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