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February 28, 2014 at 8:58 am (This post was last modified: February 28, 2014 at 8:59 am by Ben Davis.)
(February 28, 2014 at 8:20 am)Huggy74 Wrote:
(February 28, 2014 at 6:31 am)Ben Davis Wrote: This is just a mandate for vicarious redemption: utterly immoral as it divorces us from the responsibility and accountability we have for our actions. None of that makes it okay for christians either to own people as property or to deny that god mandated that people should be owned as property. How do you not see this?
Let me ask you something. Have you ever....
told a lie
stolen anything
Desired a woman sexually
Had premarital sex
Cheated someone
spoke evil of someone (name calling, gossip ect.)
that's all i can come up with off the top of my head, but if the answer is "yes" to any of those, then you are guilty under the law and deserving of death. But Instead of death, eternal life is freely given to anyone that wants it, and you somehow find that immoral.
The question isn't 'have I done any of these things?', the question is 'do I want to take any responsibility for my actions?'. If my answer is 'yes', I have to reject the concept of vicarious redemption.
Also, you'd kill someone for gossiping?!?! That indicates a serious social disconnect and a lack of empathy.
Quote:Where is this mandate you speak of, I clearly posted where is was illegal to force someone into slavery against their will. Since question deals with ancient Jewish law which i am unfamiliar with, I'll just post a snippet from a Jewish website on the subject. (source http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTM...04-01.html)
Question 1: Does Halacha Permit Jews to Own Slaves?
First, note that "Slavery" in the Torah generally refers to temporary indentured servitude to one's creditor. Such slavery was permitted under Jewish law. However, the treatment of Jews towards their slaves was much more humane than that of the surrounding culture, for a key element of Judaism is to remember that Jews were once slaves in Egypt (in fact, this is the central theme of the holiday of Pesach).
In Judaism, the slave was protected. Exodus 21:2-11 defines the rights of the servant. Quoting from the Hertz Penatateuch and Haftorahs:
Slavery, as permitted by the Torah was quite different from Greek and Roman Slavery, or even the cruel system in some modern countries down to our own times. In Hebrew law, the slave was not a thing, but a human being; he was not the chattel of a master who had unlimited power over him. In the Hebrew language, there is only one word for slave and servant. Brutal treatment of any slave, whether Hebrew or heathen, secures his immediate liberty.
Jewish law required that a slave could go free in the seventh year of service (Exodus 21:2), although his family would not be freed; although if he came into servitude with a wife, that wife would also be freed. The slave could, however, indicate that they perferred bondage to freedom. Every fiftieth year (the "Jubilee"), the slaves with their families would be emancipated, and property (except house property in a walled city) would revert to its original owner. (Lev XXV:8-55).
In Judaism, there is also the concept of an "Eved Canani", a non-Jewish slave, who is the property of a Jew, as is discussed in Vayikrah 25:46. This concept of slavery is nothing like slavery that occurred in America to the Negroes. The slaves were not kidnapped, but rather were purchased from themselves; i.e., they were offered a sum of money, or guaranteed shelter and food, in exchange for becoming slaves. The obligation to treat your slave humanely applies to both Jewish and non-Jewish slave, as does the obligation to make sure they have all necessary comforts, even at the expense of their master's own comfort (e.g., if there are not enough pillows for all, the master must provide his slaves with pillows before himself).
There are a number of places in the bible where god specifically tells his people that they can take people as slaves/wives/chattel. Your post is just trying to provide 'contexts' in which slavery is okay (e.g. it's not the same slavery as we think of now o'days...). Nonsense. Slavery is never okay in any context and any value-set that tries to excuse or justify it is immoral in that regard.
(February 28, 2014 at 8:58 am)Ben Davis Wrote: The question isn't 'have I done any of these things?', the question is 'do I want to take any responsibility for my actions?'. If my answer is 'yes', I have to reject the concept of vicarious redemption.
The question Is "have you done those things" because if you have, then you broke the Law for which the penalty is death. If you are saying you'd rather pay the penalty yourself, then reject the pardon, if you want to live then accept it.
If I was on death row and the president pardoned me, I'd be a fool not to accept it.
Quote:Also, you'd kill someone for gossiping?!?! That indicates a serious social disconnect and a lack of empathy.
When I say "gossip" I'm talking specifically about spreading false rumors about someone, you don't have to be the one that started it you just have to participate, that is considered the same as murder. All it takes is a few "rumors" to destroy a persons influence. After all "the pen is mightier than the sword"
Quote:There are a number of places in the bible where god specifically tells his people that they can take people as slaves/wives/chattel. Your post is just trying to provide 'contexts' in which slavery is okay (e.g. it's not the same slavery as we think of now o'days...).
maybe you missed the part where it states that in ancient Hebrew, the word for servant and slave are same.
Quote:Slavery is never okay in any context and any value-set that tries to excuse or justify it is immoral in that regard.
(February 28, 2014 at 10:14 am)Huggy74 Wrote: So whats your stance on interns?
I'm always shocked as to how many times I have to correct religious comparisons to make them align with reality. But, since I apparently have to do it again, here's a short list of things interns can do that slaves can't:
1. Leave.
2. Expect not to get beaten.
3. Move on to a paid position later.
4. Be protected by the laws that also protect their employers.
5. Earn money in other jobs.
6. Expect not to be killed by their employers.
7. Expect not to be passed around from one employer to another like property.
8. Leave.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
February 28, 2014 at 10:21 am (This post was last modified: February 28, 2014 at 10:21 am by Bad Wolf.)
You are really comparing internship with slavery?
OK lets do that:
Slave: owned as property, not paid, can be beaten to an inch of death, cannot leave whenever they want
Intern: Not owned as property, not paid (sometimes), laws protecting them against being beaten, can leave whenever they want.
Next time, how about you think before you type?
Oh fuck you Esquilax!
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
(February 28, 2014 at 8:58 am)Ben Davis Wrote: The question isn't 'have I done any of these things?', the question is 'do I want to take any responsibility for my actions?'. If my answer is 'yes', I have to reject the concept of vicarious redemption.
The question Is "have you done those things" because if you have, then you broke the Law for which the penalty is death. If you are saying you'd rather pay the penalty yourself, then reject the pardon, if you want to live then accept it.
If I was on death row and the president pardoned me, I'd be a fool not to accept it.
If you're on death row and you'd rather an innocent person die for something you did, you're a horribly immoral person.
(February 28, 2014 at 10:14 am)Huggy74 Wrote: The question Is "have you done those things" because if you have, then you broke the Law for which the penalty is death. If you are saying you'd rather pay the penalty yourself, then reject the pardon, if you want to live then accept it.
If I was on death row and the president pardoned me, I'd be a fool not to accept it.
But it's clearly not a pardon. Instead, an innocent person would be punished instead of me. That's just wrong.
Quote:When I say "gossip" I'm talking specifically about spreading false rumors about someone, you don't have to be the one that started it you just have to participate, that is considered the same as murder. All it takes is a few "rumors" to destroy a persons influence. After all "the pen is mightier than the sword"
So you would kill someone for gossiping. 'Spreading false rumours' clearly has different consequences than murdering someone. Do you not see how it's wrong to have the same punishment?
Quote:maybe you missed the part where it states that in ancient Hebrew, the word for servant and slave are same.
The 'word' for it is irrelevant. It's still the ownership of a person as property. What don't you understand about the immorality of this position?
Quote:So whats your stance on interns?
That they're not slaves therefore irrelevant to this discussion.
February 28, 2014 at 11:13 am (This post was last modified: February 28, 2014 at 11:13 am by Huggy Bear.)
(February 28, 2014 at 10:21 am)Bad Wolf Wrote: You are really comparing internship with slavery?
OK lets do that:
Slave: owned as property, not paid, can be beaten to an inch of death, cannot leave whenever they want
Intern: Not owned as property, not paid (sometimes), laws protecting them against being beaten, can leave whenever they want.
Next time, how about you think before you type?
(February 28, 2014 at 10:17 am)Esquilax Wrote: I'm always shocked as to how many times I have to correct religious comparisons to make them align with reality. But, since I apparently have to do it again, here's a short list of things interns can do that slaves can't:
Apparently you guys never read what I posted
Quote:1. Leave.
"Jewish law required that a slave could go free in the seventh year of service"
Quote:2. Expect not to get beaten.
"Brutal treatment of any slave, whether Hebrew or heathen, secures his immediate liberty."
Quote:3. Move on to a paid position later.
see number 1
Quote:4. Be protected by the laws that also protect their employers.
see 1 and 2
Quote:5. Earn money in other jobs.
I guess you got me there.
Quote:6. Expect not to be killed by their employers.
again see number 2
Quote:7. Expect not to be passed around from one employer to another like property.
"In Hebrew law, the slave was not a thing, but a human being; he was not the chattel of a master who had unlimited power over him."
Quote:8. Leave.
number 1
like I said the word for slave and servant in ancient Hebrew are the same, in fact the word "slave only appears twice in the King James version of the Bible. Otherwise it uses the words "servant" or "Bond servant"
Definition
bond·ser·vant (bŏnd′sûr′vənt)
1. A person obligated to service without wages.
(February 28, 2014 at 11:13 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Apparently you guys never read what I posted
Oh, I did. I was just hoping I wouldn't have to deal with the usual sloppy, dishonest apologetic about this. Unfortunately, you're clearly as dishonest as the rest of your ilk.
Quote:"Jewish law required that a slave could go free in the seventh year of service"
That's one Jew, enslaving another Jew. Foreign slaves can be kept indefinitely, passed down along ancestral lines like property, and bought from the slave markets of other tribes.
Oh, and the passage about when a Jewish slave could be set free goes on to detail a method by which a slave owner can trick the slave into staying on forever. So... lie of omission, or just ignorance?
Quote: "Brutal treatment of any slave, whether Hebrew or heathen, secures his immediate liberty."
But according to the bible you can beat your slave until they die, just so long as they do so a couple of days after a beating, instead of straight away. The best you can say is that you've found a contradiction in the bible.
Quote:see number 1
... Except if you're foreign, or a victim of that trick I told you about.
Quote:see 1 and 2
Ditto.
Quote:I guess you got me there.
Slavery is immoral, mostly because of this power imbalance between slave and owner.
Quote:again see number 2
I wonder, did you just not read everything the bible has to say about slavery, or are you just hoping I hadn't?
Quote:"In Hebrew law, the slave was not a thing, but a human being; he was not the chattel of a master who had unlimited power over him."
"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"
That's from the bible, you know.
Quote:like I said the word for slave and servant in ancient Hebrew are the same, in fact the word "slave only appears twice in the King James version of the Bible. Otherwise it uses the words "servant" or "Bond servant"
Definition
bond·ser·vant (bŏnd′sûr′vənt)
1. A person obligated to service without wages.
in other words an intern.
See the bible passage I just quoted. Does that sound like an intern to you?
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
February 28, 2014 at 12:06 pm (This post was last modified: February 28, 2014 at 12:08 pm by Huggy Bear.)
(February 28, 2014 at 10:25 am)ThePinsir Wrote: If you're on death row and you'd rather an innocent person die for something you did, you're a horribly immoral person.
If he didn't mind and could resurrect himself, I'm all for it.
(February 28, 2014 at 11:35 am)Esquilax Wrote: "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"
That's from the bible, you know.
See the bible passage I just quoted. Does that sound like an intern to you?
Here is the rest of that passage for context.
Leviticus 25 47 “Suppose a foreigner or temporary resident becomes rich while living among you. If any of your fellow Israelites fall into poverty and are forced to sell themselves to such a foreigner or to a member of his family, 48 they still retain the right to be bought back, even after they have been purchased. They may be bought back by a brother, 49 an uncle, or a cousin. In fact, anyone from the extended family may buy them back. They may also redeem themselves if they have prospered.
Sounds voluntary to me. Crazy how people would sell themselves, and be subjected to being beat within an inch of their life. Also where is the "slave" getting money to redeem himself from? [/sarcasm]
