For the Dis man, he wants me to offer what deists have done for the world, as opposed to Christianity's wonderful contributions.

Well, for starters...

I agree. America is not a christian nation. It's a nation that's predominantly christian. There's a big difference, mostly that the constitution and Bill of Rights is not based on any religious text.

TREATY WITH TRIPOLI...... Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

can I have a kudos or an AMEN.

Deism gave us the Declaration of Independance and the Declaration of the Rights of Man.

Infinitely superior to the jesus freak motherfuckers and their divine right of kings.

(March 1, 2014 at 11:48 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Deism gave us the Declaration of Independance and the Declaration of the Rights of Man.

Infinitely superior to the jesus freak motherfuckers and their divine right of kings.

In all fairness, I'm pretty sure that Jesus wasn't the one who established the divine right of kings. I'm pretty sure kings did that.

Yeah, that "render unto caesar" line was really a
desperate bit of self defense, I don't think we should hold it against big J.

(March 2, 2014 at 3:08 am)bennyboy Wrote:

(March 1, 2014 at 11:48 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Deism gave us the Declaration of Independance and the Declaration of the Rights of Man.

Infinitely superior to the jesus freak motherfuckers and their divine right of kings.

In all fairness, I'm pretty sure that Jesus wasn't the one who established the divine right of kings. I'm pretty sure kings did that.

Their claim to America being founded based on Christianity is ridiculous. The puritans came sure, but America wasn't found in religious rule what so ever. Their claim for this holds just as true for any other country in the western world. Sure it sounds nice, but it just doesn't stick. All Christianity has done to any nation is become the majority religion.

(March 1, 2014 at 11:30 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: For the Dis man, he wants me to offer what deists have done for the world, as opposed to Christianity's wonderful contributions.

Well, for starters...

Another red herring. For I specifically asked DeistPaladin to furnish us with what Deists have done for the Children of the world's nations.

Alas.....me thinks I shall never see such evidence......

Nevertheless it was an amusing little video. I liked the music more than anything I actually read in it. For the majority of what was in the video was so geared towards trying to prove a point (which by the way is patently false. The members of the Constitutional Convention were predominately Christians) that this endeavor left the video looking and sounding rather cartoonish. It is common knowledge to all that Jefferson was a Deist. A couple others were too.

But instead of some cartoonish video, I reply with simply hard facts and statistics for you all to engage with that show that the majority of the the members of the Constitutional Convention were Christians. Not Deists.

The Constitutional Convention

It's not necessary to dig through the diaries (of the founding fathers), however, to determine which faith was the Founder's guiding light. There's an easier way to settle the issue.

The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a specific group of men, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention. There were other important players not in attendance, like Jefferson, whose thinking deeply influenced the shaping of our nation. These 55 Founding Fathers, though, made up the core.

The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith. [John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.]

This is a revealing tally. It shows that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. Indeed, 70% were Calvinists (the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and the Dutch Reformed). http://www.str.org/articles/the-faith-of...xMU1flSiSo

It must be noted that Thomas Jefferson was not present due to him at the time being abroad as the minister to France. John Adams was in Brittain as well. If we take these two and add them to the tally, we have five deists.

And what of our friend ole Ben Franklin.....:

Though not an orthodox Christian, it was 81-year-old Franklin's emotional call to humble prayer on June 28, 1787, that was the turning point for a hopelessly stalled Convention. James Madison recorded the event in his collection of notes and debates from the Federal Convention. Franklin's appeal contained no less than four direct references to Scripture.

And have we forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance? I have lived, sir, a long time and the longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings that 'except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.' [i]I firmly believe this and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel. [Benjamin Franklin, quoted by James Madison in Notes on Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787 (Athens: Ohio University Press, 1966, 1985), p. 209.][/i]

So DeistPaladin, that bit about America being a Deist country, is a myth, a fable. Some of the founding fathers may have been Deists no doubt, some prominent and influential may also have been Deists no doubt, but it is upon the Judeo-Christian worldview that this country was founded, not Deism.

In summation:

When you study the documents of the Revolutionary period, a precise picture comes into focus. Here it is:

Virtually all those involved in the founding enterprise were God-fearing men in the Christian sense; most were Calvinistic Protestants.

The Founders were deeply influenced by a biblical view of man and government. With a sober understanding of the fallenness of man, they devised a system of limited authority and checks and balances.

The Founders understood that fear of God, moral leadership, and a righteous citizenry were necessary for their great experiment to succeed.
Therefore, they structured a political climate that was encouraging to Christianity and accommodating to religion, rather than hostile to it.

Protestant Christianity was the prevailing religious view for the first 150 years of our history.

However...

The Fathers sought to set up a just society, not a Christian theocracy.
They specifically prohibited the establishment of Christianity--or any other faith--as the religion of our nation. http://www.str.org/articles/the-faith-of...xMU1flSiSo

With regards to the separation of Chruch and State, I heartily agree that that is the way it should be!!!

So it seems here DeistPaladin you have once again misinterpreted the data.

But not only that, this is not even what we are to be discussing now is it?

I see I shall have to do what I said I would and post a new thread with my statistics and facts regarding Christianity's contribution to the CHILDREN OF THE WORLD'S NATIONS.

(March 2, 2014 at 7:49 am)discipulus Wrote: I see I shall have to do what I said I would and post a new thread with my statistics and facts regarding Christianity's contribution to the CHILDREN OF THE WORLD'S NATIONS.

Well the Catholic church for one has done much to spark a sexual awakening amongst its children. Sadly that is not a good thing.

(March 2, 2014 at 8:34 am)whateverist Wrote:

(March 2, 2014 at 7:49 am)discipulus Wrote: I see I shall have to do what I said I would and post a new thread with my statistics and facts regarding Christianity's contribution to the CHILDREN OF THE WORLD'S NATIONS.

Well the Catholic church for one has done much to spark a sexual awakening amongst its children. Sadly that is not a good thing.

I think you mean to say that certain men and women have sexually molested children under their care. These particular men and women in question no doubt may be members of the Catholic church and even profess to be Christian, this is not in dispute.

But to say that these wicked men and women, were somehow acting in accordance with Christ's teachings and are representative of a Christian is simply dishonest. But not only that, it shows me the deep depravity and darkness of your heart and mind that you would even speak so lightly of such a serious matter.

You are not to be commended for these remarks. Your atheist friends may laugh at you and think you are cute but I honestly think you are very sad and pitiful.

If indeed you are an intellectual and enlightened and wish to be seen as the bastion of rational thought then surely you should know that you are not to judge a philosophy by its abuse?