(March 17, 2014 at 7:12 pm)discipulus Wrote:

(March 17, 2014 at 7:07 pm)shep Wrote: Please elaborate on why you think an Atheist has faith.

An atheist exercises faith i.e trust or reliance upon something that cannot be proven when they trust in their cognitive faculties. They also trust in the scientific method even though the scientific method itself cannot be deemed reliable by alluding to what it has shown to be true because to do so would be to argue in a circle.

Scientist and atheist alike believe, trust in, have faith in the findings of science and that their cognitive faculties present them with a true picture of the world they live and work in even though neither can be proven without arguing in a circle.

You seem to be confusing atheists replacing faith with science, you are wrong. I have always been an atheist even before I knew anything about science.

And of course atheism was around before science.

There have always been people who found religion unconvincing.

Ages ago there was a "questions" game thread in which one could only post questions, never replies.

It appears to have leaked.

(March 17, 2014 at 7:16 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(March 17, 2014 at 7:12 pm)discipulus Wrote: An atheist exercises faith i.e trust or reliance upon something that cannot be proven when they trust in their cognitive faculties. They also trust in the scientific method even though the scientific method itself cannot be deemed reliable by alluding to what it has shown to be true because to do so would be to argue in a circle.

Scientist and atheist alike believe, trust in, have faith in the findings of science and that their cognitive faculties present them with a true picture of the world they live and work in even though neither can be proven without arguing in a circle.

You seem to be confusing atheists replacing faith with science, you are wrong. I have always been an atheist even before I knew anything about science.

And of course atheism was around before science.

There have always been people who found religion unconvincing.

No. Atheists exercise faith when they maintain that their cognitive faculties are reliable. Faith here simply means to trust in something without being able to prove said something is reliable.

There is no way for you or any other atheist to step outside of their five senses to test their veridicality.

You just trust that they are reliable without proof that they are (here proof refers to something concrete and empirical).

Understand?

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(March 17, 2014 at 7:22 pm)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: Ages ago there was a "questions" game thread in which one could only post questions, never replies.

It appears to have leaked.

If you would look closely at the discussion you would see that I am demonstrating why atheists are men and women who trust things they cannot prove despite them denigrating Christians who do the same.

Quote:No. Atheists exercise faith when they maintain that their cognitive faculties are reliable. Faith here simply means to trust in something without being able to prove said something is reliable.

There is no way for you or any other atheist to step outside of their five senses to test their veridicality.

You just trust that they are reliable without proof that they are (here proof refers to something concrete and empirical).

Understand?

All your doing is making shit up to try and reinforce your weak argument.

There's no way to step out of our 5 senses, no shit, there's still plenty of things based off certain scientific findings that work to a fucking "T", and it's sure as hell not from faith.

(March 17, 2014 at 7:32 pm)Asimm Wrote: All your doing is making shit up to try and reinforce your weak argument.

There's no way to step out of our 5 senses, no shit, there's still plenty of things based off certain scientific findings that work to a fucking "T", and it's sure as hell not from faith.

Actually it is called "critical thinking" and "logical reasoning"....

Science itself is based upon certain philosophical presuppositions that are axiomatic in nature and that cannot be proven.

Science "works" as you say, because scientists believe in those axioms despite not being able to prove they are true (definition of an axiom). They believe, trust in, place faith in these axioms in order to even do science.

Of course they would never say they exercise faith in these things because they see that as being too "unscientific". How ironic that God has made the world in such a way as to make faith necessary for science to even be possible!





P.s. saying science works because science works is arguing in a circle. It is like saying the Bible is the word of God because the Bible says it is the Word of God. If you would not accept the latter, you cannot accept the former. They both are tautologous.

My irony meter just got blown out the window

(March 17, 2014 at 7:35 pm)discipulus Wrote:

(March 17, 2014 at 7:32 pm)Asimm Wrote: All your doing is making shit up to try and reinforce your weak argument.

There's no way to step out of our 5 senses, no shit, there's still plenty of things based off certain scientific findings that work to a fucking "T", and it's sure as hell not from faith.

Actually it is called "critical thinking" and "logical reasoning"....

Cool glad you agree!

Quote:Science itself is based upon certain philosophical presuppositions that are axiomatic in nature and that cannot be proven.

way to word it to fit your argument. Lets ignore the fact that nothing can be proven 100 percent ever, what science does is aim for that 99 percentile.

Quote:Science "works" as you say, because scientists believe in those axioms despite not being able to prove they are true (definition of an axiom). They believe, trust in, place faith in these axioms in order to even do science.

I get it, you want us to admit it's faith. Faith is believing something without the evidence to back it up. What science does is eliminate the need for faith, and having supporting evidence to come to a conclusion.

Quote:Of course they would never say they exercise faith in these things because they see that as being too "unscientific". How ironic that God has made the world in such a way as to make faith necessary for science to even be possible!

lol!

Quote:P.s. saying science works because science works is arguing in a circle. It is like saying the Bible is the word of God because the Bible says it is the Word of God. If you would not accept the latter, you cannot accept the former. They both are tautologous.

No, science has proven to work through experimentation and results. Let me know when your book does something better then being my backup toilet paper when supplies run low.

If my wife says she doesn't cheat on me, I believe her. That's a belief. I don't have enough data to say otherwise and I trust her.
I have faith that she will continue to not cheat. Faith in her personality.Faith that she will continue to be the same person... I have no way to know what will happen nor to control it, so I must resort to faith...
Mind you, it's not faith in the existence of some magician entity... just faith...hope... that what is, will be... statistics suggest it is a reasonable faith, as I've been having it for almost 10 years and it looks the same now as it did then.
Also I like to pride myself with being a relatively god judge of character. :p

I do not believe in all the people who have provided me with an account of things I cannot reasonably experience myself. This lack of belief in the accounts off those people (and let's count the people who wrote certain books) leads top a lack of faith that some events, predicted by those people, will come too pass.

Religions did not invent the concepts of belief and faith...

Maybe the stumbling block here, is the word "Faith".
Since it is so foundational to Christianity.

What if the word was "trust" instead?
Or, "Belief" (well -that may be too touchy).

Who doesn't exercise faith every day?....you drive you car, ride a bike, fly in a plane, walk to get the mail.
You trust (based on whatever..) that the rewards outweigh the risk.
THAT is faith.
As far as we use the English language -all these words are interchangeable.

(March 17, 2014 at 8:05 pm)pocaracas Wrote: If my wife says she doesn't cheat on me, I believe her. That's a belief. I don't have enough data to say otherwise and I trust her.
I have faith that she will continue to not cheat. Faith in her personality.Faith that she will continue to be the same person... I have no way to know what will happen nor to control it, so I must resort to faith...
Mind you, it's not faith in the existence of some magician entity... just faith...hope... that what is, will be... statistics suggest it is a reasonable faith, as I've been having it for almost 10 years and it looks the same now as it did then.
Also I like to pride myself with being a relatively god judge of character. :p

I do not believe in all the people who have provided me with an account of things I cannot reasonably experience myself. This lack of belief in the accounts off those people (and let's count the people who wrote certain books) leads top a lack of faith that some events, predicted by those people, will come too pass.

Religions did not invent the concepts of belief and faith...

Everything you said about your wife being faithful, I can say about God being faithful to me, hence I trust Him.

IOW, I have no good reason not to trust Him. In a sense, you even exercise faith in believing she exists. Why? Because once again, you are trusting in and relying on your cognitive faculties and five senses to present you with an accurate rendition of what reality is despite NOT being able to prove said faculties are reliable.

The means by which you engage in your relationship with your wife, and the means by which I engage in my relationship with God are thus quite similar!hock:

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(March 17, 2014 at 8:12 pm)professor Wrote: Maybe the stumbling block here, is the word "Faith".
Since it is so foundational to Christianity.

What if the word was "trust" instead?
Or, "Belief" (well -that may be too touchy).

Who doesn't exercise faith every day?....you drive you car, ride a bike, fly in a plane, walk to get the mail.
You trust (based on whatever..) that the rewards outweigh the risk.
THAT is faith.
As far as we use the English language -all these words are interchangeable.

Kudos to you.

The only people who see faith as being some blind leap in the dark are those who desire to present a strawman of the concept in order to attack it with less effort.