(April 6, 2010 at 11:39 am)Ace Wrote: Agreed that a van driving into a hot zone with two kids inside is a bit of a daft thing to do. Especially if the van has no markings on it to say it's an ambulance. However, I saw nothing threaterning about it. Guys jumping out picking up bodies is hardly a threat to an attack heli. Also kids? What they do? punk their tongues at the heli? Agreed, the firing on the van was over kill.
Oh and the government lying about it was just plain wrong.

It wasn't just overkill. It was coldblooded murder. Under no circumstances were they ever a threat.

(April 6, 2010 at 4:55 pm)Synackaon Wrote:

(April 6, 2010 at 11:39 am)Ace Wrote: Agreed that a van driving into a hot zone with two kids inside is a bit of a daft thing to do. Especially if the van has no markings on it to say it's an ambulance. However, I saw nothing threaterning about it. Guys jumping out picking up bodies is hardly a threat to an attack heli. Also kids? What they do? punk their tongues at the heli? Agreed, the firing on the van was over kill.
Oh and the government lying about it was just plain wrong.

It wasn't just overkill. It was coldblooded murder. Under no circumstances were they ever a threat.

No, they weren't a threat, but that is not in question. The question is whether they could have been viewed as a threat and the answer to that is yes.

By that logic anything pretty much is ok to shoot on so long as you consider it a 'possible' threat. Yes, I have had a gun pulled on me and I near pissed myself. Guy was drunk too. Used to poke it out of his window at passers by, presumably cos it made him feel hard. Much like the prick in the clip.
Ambulance
Just cos it ain't got flashy lights and goes not weewaaweewaa don't mean it isn't an ambulance.
It was a crime to cover this incident up, if nothing else.

(April 6, 2010 at 8:24 pm)RedFish Wrote: By that logic anything pretty much is ok to shoot on so long as you consider it a 'possible' threat. Yes, I have had a gun pulled on me and I near pissed myself. Guy was drunk too. Used to poke it out of his window at passers by, presumably cos it made him feel hard. Much like the prick in the clip.
Ambulance
Just cos it ain't got flashy lights and goes not weewaaweewaa don't mean it isn't an ambulance.
It was a crime to cover this incident up, if nothing else.

No, by that logic, it is within the law for a soldier to take out a possible threat. I never implied that people can do that willy-nilly with no moral obligation.

By your logic, every man in a uniform serving overseas is a prick. Nearly all of them talk like that. That is beside the point. He acted in an acceptable way, according to the rules of engagement.

It was wrong to cover this up. I don't know if it's a crime. Perhaps it should be. I'm just not sure that it is.

Oh yeah, if it doesn't have lights, it isn't OBVIOUSLY an ambulance. That is the point. It's the cover-up that was wrong. The soldiers acted in an official capacity. They were not acting without permission.

Adrain is the champion arm-chair quarter back here.

Coulda shoulda woulda.. Whatever dude, it's war. Your buddies on the ground reporting being fired upon, you show up and see what appears to be a group with weapons gathering. What? you wanna wait until they take out a couple few of your guys first?

Note to self; Do NOT follow Adrian into battle.

I seriously doubt you would want that if it was YOU on the ground.

Adrian to chopper 1.... Insurgents firing on me. But wait let's see if they put a bullet in my head or lob a rocket on my ass before you fire ok?

OF COURSE you want them to identify the bad guys and not indiscriminately fire on people but goddamnit if they THINK they see weapons (yes the cameras were questionable but there was OBVIOUS to me one dude carrying an AK.) then fuk 'em up please.

---

Apologies to Adrian. I posted before reading the thread thru.

---

(April 6, 2010 at 8:24 pm)RedFish Wrote: By that logic anything pretty much is ok to shoot on so long as you consider it a 'possible' threat. Yes, I have had a gun pulled on me and I near pissed myself. Guy was drunk too. Used to poke it out of his window at passers by, presumably cos it made him feel hard. Much like the prick in the clip.
Ambulance
Just cos it ain't got flashy lights and goes not weewaaweewaa don't mean it isn't an ambulance.
It was a crime to cover this incident up, if nothing else.

Redfish, your posts always make me think of this;

[youtube]F2FjmfvmRa0[/youtube]

---

''By your logic, every man in a uniform serving overseas is a prick.'' ?? How? You obviously mistake my criticism of one trigger-happy soldier for a critique on the armed forces. Not so at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_en...litary_ROE
The ROE were too loose, in this instance. The guy on the trigger was obviously making the facts fit his desires in order to open fire. I come from the UK, our ROE would require incoming fire to elicit a response. We're more polite...
Yes, shit does happen in war, but it also has to end sometime. It does not end if we make 10more enemies for every 1 we kill.

''When the Germans fire, the British duck. When the British fire, the Germans duck. When the Americans fire, everyone ducks.'' <<WW1 saying.

Man, that dog can sing!! Not as deep as mine used to, but it's only a little un. Nice one, I get your point, but I've been howling my whole life and I'm not gonna shut up for you. You know where the off switch is...think maybe you're just denying the hound in yourself anyway...

Weapons clearly shown:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201889.php

No, I didn't mistake your words as a critique of all armed forces. I am saying that most American troops sound just as callous as those men. You judged him a prick because he sounded like the kind of guy who shoots because it makes him hard (which I doubt, maintaining an erection in that scenario is probably rather difficult).

I don't think it was 'obvious' that the guy was making the facts fit his desires. Once he believed that the men were insurgents, it was naturally his desire to shoot and kill him. If he had been speaking that way about a group of actual insurgents, people would think nothing of his words. Remember, he was acting on that belief. The words and actions that follow are based on that.

It's polite to allow the enemy to shoot first? Where I come from that's just plain stupid.

BooYaa!

---

(April 6, 2010 at 9:16 pm)tavarish Wrote: Weapons clearly shown:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201889.php

(April 6, 2010 at 9:22 pm)Dotard Wrote: BooYaa!

---

(April 6, 2010 at 9:16 pm)tavarish Wrote: Weapons clearly shown:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201889.php

Hooray! Everything is A fucking OK! Vans and all. How wonderful that anything perceived as a threat can be eliminated! Mistakes, even honest ones, made are no problem. It's all in how you see it.