(May 29, 2014 at 4:09 pm)Esquilax Wrote: OP, allow me to introduce you to the most powerful question we have in refuting theists: How do you know?

How does he know the universe could not have come from nothing? How does he know that there couldn't be an infinite chain of creators, and so on? Hell, more importantly, how does he know he's encompassed every possible solution to this issue?

Knowledge is demonstrated and not just asserted, so he's going to need to bring some evidence to bear, which he doesn't have. Nobody does, but the difference is that as an atheist I'm more comfortable just leaving that question at the "I don't know" stage and letting the evidence fall where it may. If someone else wants to assert things about something they can't possibly know about, then they'd better get all their shit together before they start spouting off assertions.

How does he know? The answer is that he doesn't, and his shell game relies upon you not figuring that out to work. Don't fall prey to the false dichotomy he's trying to introduce.

Ignore what I said! ^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Why does the op think time is "older" than matter or energy? What evidence does he have to support that?

(May 29, 2014 at 4:04 pm)OhWord Wrote:

(May 29, 2014 at 3:58 pm)Cato Wrote: New atheist my ass. This shit has been answered on these forums several times. Someone else can play with the new toy.

Jesus! man. I'm Serious. Could You send me the links to where it has been answered?
Thanks.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...l_argument

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: I read this I know it's Bull But Could you refute it?
Thanks.

If you know science there is no such thing as infinite... If I have an infinite number of Dollars and I subtract 5 is there still an inifite amount or is it infinite minus 5?

Astronomers and Cosmologists agree that the universe has a beginning and is not infinite in size.. As Aristotle said the infinite is potentialized never actualized

So since we have established that there is no such thing as infinite that means the universe had a beginning there are 4 logical answers for the beginning of the universe seen and unseen;

1) the universe was created via nothing
2) the universe created itself
3) the universe was created by something which was also created
4) the universe was created by something UNCREATED

The universe cannot be created via nothing because the definition of nothing means zip zero not an atom nothing.. Your mother cannot give birth to herself... Number 3 if the universe was created by something which was created than you are implying the universe seen and unseen has an infinite past and a logical fallacy and if you believe that you ignore science... That would mean the created creator would have had a created creator which would have had a created creator and so on... We know that infinite is an impossibility so there would have had to be an Originator... The One who begets not nor is begotten

The problem is that it's almost impossible to to imagine what true "Nothing" is and what its properties are. That's because we live in a sea of "Something". However, it should be obvious that "Nothing" really exists and that it is the source of Everything. We should know that because the visible building block of the Universe is hydrogen, which evolves from "Nothing". Once "Nothing" creates hydrogen all things become possible. The hydrogen clumps together into giant balls and then ignites in a nuclear reaction to form stars, which create the heavy elements and real material.

To simply matters "Nothing" is generally referred to as "Quantum Foam".

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(May 29, 2014 at 8:52 pm)Brakeman Wrote: Why does the op think time is "older" than matter or energy? What evidence does he have to support that?

Time is basically a function of movement so once Quantum Foam produced its first tiny weenie particle time started. It's been running ever since.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: 1) the universe was created via nothing
2) the universe created itself
3) the universe was created by something which was also created
4) the universe was created by something UNCREATED

The universe cannot be created via nothing because the definition of nothing means zip zero not an atom nothing.. Your mother cannot give birth to herself... Number 3 if the universe was created by something which was created than you are implying the universe seen and unseen has an infinite past and a logical fallacy and if you believe that you ignore science... That would mean the created creator would have had a created creator which would have had a created creator and so on... We know that infinite is an impossibility so there would have had to be an Originator... The One who begets not nor is begotten

Do you know the universe didn't create itself? If you're willing to accept an entity that it outside of space and time cuz you say so, how do you know the universe isn't outside of space and time?

I've never understood why, in this universe full of things, that people assume that the default state must be nothing.

Clearly the existence of things is possible - we can observe that, however what possible reason can we have to imagine that the absence of everything is even possible.

Just like infinity is a useful mathematical construct so is 0. It represents an absence of an amount of things but is never actually a number of things. Having 0 apples is not a quantity of apples.

Before we wrangle with the question 'how did the universe come from nothing' we must first ascertain that actual nothing is possible.

(May 30, 2014 at 11:33 am)CherishSin Wrote: I've never understood why, in this universe full of things, that people assume that the default state must be nothing.

Because Genesis 1:1 says so, and they have a really hard time conceptualizing anything in the world if they don't do so through the lens of their beliefs. This is why creationists counter evolution with things like crocoducks. It shows an inherent lack of understanding.

(May 29, 2014 at 3:54 pm)OhWord Wrote: I read this I know it's Bull But Could you refute it?
Thanks.

If you know science there is no such thing as infinite... If I have an infinite number of Dollars and I subtract 5 is there still an inifite amount or is it infinite minus 5?

Astronomers and Cosmologists agree that the universe has a beginning and is not infinite in size.. As Aristotle said the infinite is potentialized never actualized

So since we have established that there is no such thing as infinite that means the universe had a beginning there are 4 logical answers for the beginning of the universe seen and unseen;

1) the universe was created via nothing
2) the universe created itself
3) the universe was created by something which was also created
4) the universe was created by something UNCREATED

The universe cannot be created via nothing because the definition of nothing means zip zero not an atom nothing.. Your mother cannot give birth to herself... Number 3 if the universe was created by something which was created than you are implying the universe seen and unseen has an infinite past and a logical fallacy and if you believe that you ignore science... That would mean the created creator would have had a created creator which would have had a created creator and so on... We know that infinite is an impossibility so there would have had to be an Originator... The One who begets not nor is begotten

Sorry - but that is NOT a complete list of the possible ways the Universe came to be - it is a religious creation.

The problem is that the 4 assume there was NOTHING when the Universe came to be - which is something claimed but NOT established.

In fact - it is just as possible that the Universe was created from something that has always existed - IE =- Energy -and through relativity Mass as well.

And then - of course - the problem still continues with the claim of a "creator" - what created it - was IT created out of nothing as well.

And of course - this fails to support religion - because the possible existence of a creator - fails to support a god of religion - and all the supernatural nonsense that this implies.

Even if a "creator" started the process of evolution that the Universe developed from - there is NO reason why the creator needed any power beyond the power to start evolution - and there is also no reason to expect that creator to still exist as well.

(May 29, 2014 at 10:44 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(May 29, 2014 at 8:52 pm)Brakeman Wrote: Why does the op think time is "older" than matter or energy? What evidence does he have to support that?

Time is basically a function of movement so once Quantum Foam produced its first tiny weenie particle time started. It's been running ever since.

Exactly, where is his evidence that time existed before matter, as Creationists claim.