(June 4, 2014 at 9:52 pm)Ksa Wrote: Where is this mentioned in the Bible that God is infinite?

Psalms 147:5: Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.

1 John 3:20: “...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.”

Psalm 139:7-10: “Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Thy hand will lead me, And Thy right hand will lay hold of me.”

Job 36:26: Look, God is exalted beyond what we can understand. His years are without number.

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(June 4, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Irrational Wrote: With that said, why should there be a God anywhere if the universe could have possibly been uncaused?

If it is proven that the universe was not created and always existed, it wouldn't disprove the existence of God or negate any need for God, but I would be willing to re-examine my beliefs if that were so.

(June 4, 2014 at 10:22 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Irrational Wrote: With that said, why should there be a God anywhere if the universe could have possibly been uncaused?

If it is proven that the universe was not created and always existed, it wouldn't disprove the existence of God or negate any need for God, but I would be willing to re-examine my beliefs if that were so.

Actually, it would disprove the existence of a Creator.

(June 4, 2014 at 10:30 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 10:22 pm)Lek Wrote: If it is proven that the universe was not created and always existed, it wouldn't disprove the existence of God or negate any need for God, but I would be willing to re-examine my beliefs if that were so.

Actually, it would disprove the existence of a Creator.

Yes. I think it would. Let's wait and see if it's proved.

(June 4, 2014 at 10:22 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 9:52 pm)Ksa Wrote: Where is this mentioned in the Bible that God is infinite?

Psalms 147:5: Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.

1 John 3:20: “...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.”

Psalm 139:7-10: “Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Thy hand will lead me, And Thy right hand will lay hold of me.”

Job 36:26: Look, God is exalted beyond what we can understand. His years are without number.

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(June 4, 2014 at 10:00 pm)Irrational Wrote: With that said, why should there be a God anywhere if the universe could have possibly been uncaused?

If it is proven that the universe was not created and always existed, it wouldn't disprove the existence of God or negate any need for God, but I would be willing to re-examine my beliefs if that were so.

Ok if God's understanding is infinite it doesn't mean that God is infinite because, notice how they don't say the same about his strength? Also in Psalm 139:7-10, someone asking the question "where can I flee" does not mean the answer is automatically nowhere. It just shows the person is traumatized by the presence of God.

And in the last verse, eternal does not mean infinite. If his years are with no number it means God has no beginning and no end, but he can be as big as a computer box and still manage to be eternal, with infinite understanding.

(June 5, 2014 at 8:22 am)Ksa Wrote: Ok if God's understanding is infinite it doesn't mean that God is infinite because, notice how they don't say the same about his strength? Also in Psalm 139:7-10, someone asking the question "where can I flee" does not mean the answer is automatically nowhere. It just shows the person is traumatized by the presence of God.

And in the last verse, eternal does not mean infinite. If his years are with no number it means God has no beginning and no end, but he can be as big as a computer box and still manage to be eternal, with infinite understanding.

A finite being cannot have infinite understanding. Finite beings are not able to understand infinity.

(June 6, 2014 at 12:53 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 5, 2014 at 8:22 am)Ksa Wrote: Ok if God's understanding is infinite it doesn't mean that God is infinite because, notice how they don't say the same about his strength? Also in Psalm 139:7-10, someone asking the question "where can I flee" does not mean the answer is automatically nowhere. It just shows the person is traumatized by the presence of God.

And in the last verse, eternal does not mean infinite. If his years are with no number it means God has no beginning and no end, but he can be as big as a computer box and still manage to be eternal, with infinite understanding.

A finite being cannot have infinite understanding. Finite beings are not able to understand infinity.

An entity could be finite when it comes to one thing yet be infinite when it comes to another.

(June 4, 2014 at 10:42 am)Lek Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 12:27 am)Irrational Wrote: Feel free to call it "supernatural" all you want. The point was that if an uncreated God is possible, then so should an uncreated universe.

So you agree that the answer could be a supernatural one.

YOU have not established that anything SUPERNATURAL exists

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(June 4, 2014 at 9:23 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 9:10 pm)Irrational Wrote: Well, I wonder if God (if he were to exist) must be limitless.

Either way, because the possibility of an ultimate uncaused universe has not yet been reasonably ruled out, then the necessity of God's existence is not reasonable.

If you say that the existence of a creator is unreasonable, then you are saying that a universe with no beginning is the only reasonable explanation for the existence of the universe.

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(June 4, 2014 at 9:15 pm)Ksa Wrote: Beyond the edge of the universe, well, what's beyond the edge of a tree? Atmosphere...and then? Other trees. What's beyond the edge of our planet? Space...and then? Other planets. What's beyond the edge of our galaxy? Space...and then? Other galaxies.

Coming to your question, what's beyond the edge of our universe? You give me the answer.

To help you, what's beyond the edge of an orgasm? A break. And beyond it? More orgasms. You see, everything in existence works the same. If you don't understand something big, look at something small. It works in the exact same way but you just can't calculate their properties the same, so no unified theory, but do you really need to? Why would a tree behave like a galaxy? It doesn't. Because a tree isn't a galaxy. So why would anyone try to apply the same equation for both. It is stupidity.

Sounds like you have no idea what's beyond the edge of the universe either. By the way, I think God is beyond the edge of the universe.

What YOU think is of no consequence unless you provide PROOF of your statement -

The problem is - you have NOT established the need for a "GOD" - rather than just a creator with ONLY the ability to set the process of evolution in motion - and that is the most basic flaw in the religious claim.

Even if a higher power was involved in the beginning of the Universe - and I am not saying one was - WHY would it have to be an ALL-EVERYTHING god of religion - when the event does would not imply the need for any additional powers?

And worse - there is no reason to believe the "creator" even needed to exist beyond the initial creation. Nor is there any support for the rest of the nonsense stories of religion - Adam and EVE - the Flood - Jericho - Parting of the Red Sea - etc - which are all fairy tales.

And then - there are THOUSANDS of claims of creation by different gods - singular or plural - which you cannot offer any reason to accept your claim over their.

A logical person - when confronted with the sheer number of conflicting claims of various religions - would first look at the claim and eliminate those whose story includes things that do not agree with known reality - and the bible contains enough of that to be a comic book - not of use.

I don't know if it's been said, but God is suppose to be infinite. This means the life amount, power amount, etc is all infinite. Therefore according to their logic, God is an impossibility.

Personally I think the cosmological argument holds for two reasons. One because scientific evidence for finite time and the 2nd because an infinite chain of cause and effect is still an effect if all the chain is an effect which would require a cause.

Also it was mentioned that how can we know the universe can't sprout from nothingness.

I think it can be argued such knowledge ought to come from God, so us having that very knowledge would be a proof of God.

(June 6, 2014 at 7:28 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know if it's been said, but God is suppose to be infinite. This means the life amount, power amount, etc is all infinite. Therefore according to their logic, God is an impossibility.

Personally I think the cosmological argument holds for two reasons. One because scientific evidence for finite time and the 2nd because an infinite chain of cause and effect is still an effect if all the chain is an effect which would require a cause.

Are you reading a different definition of "Infinite chain of events" than everyone else?

(June 6, 2014 at 7:28 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Also it was mentioned that how can we know the universe can't sprout from nothingness.

Correct. It makes no sense to assume God could sprout the universe from nothingness, but makes sense a singularity could expand into a universe.

(June 6, 2014 at 7:28 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think it can be argued such knowledge ought to come from God, so us having that very knowledge would be a proof of God.

How so?

(June 6, 2014 at 7:36 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Are you reading a different definition of "Infinite chain of events" than everyone else?

No think about it. Each part of the infinite chain requires a cause. Within the infinite chain, you will have infinite chains that have infinite chains that are the cause of other infinite chains. Still all those infinite chains still require a cause.

It can be said a chain of effects is an effect. Therefore an infinite chain of effects is also an effect. Therefore it would require a cause as well.

Quote:

(June 6, 2014 at 7:28 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think it can be argued such knowledge ought to come from God, so us having that very knowledge would be a proof of God.

How so?

There is no way to know it otherwise. It would at best a good guess based on what we observed so far. But to know for certain that things can't just pop out of nothing as ontological fact of reality, such that, if you saw something appear in the sky and fall down, you would not assume nothing caused it to come into being but in fact know for certain it has a cause, then it requires to be given that in an absolute way.