My position is that nobody, Christian or not, has access to absolute objective morality.

If I ask a Christian how they know what kind of killing is considered murder, chances are they won't resort to an invisible silent God for the answer. They'll try to rely on their reasoning faculty instead. Well, that's an indicator of subjective morality, not objective.

So whether the Christian likes it or not, we're all in the same general boat with regards to the question of morality.

(May 11, 2014 at 9:48 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Ask them what they mean by morality. If it has nothing to do with the well-being of sentient beings but instead arbitrary rules established by an ancient deity on a long lost stone tablet, then they're not talking about morality. If they reply that it is the subject that deals with how human beings ought to treat others, then tell him you decide how to treat others the same way they do, or at least should: by experiencing suffering and well-being and using your brain to figure out how to best bring about results that multiply the latter and diminish the former.

I love this response!

It's a loaded question, morality is totally subjective.

This is a great question, I would suggest reading some Christopher Hitchens, he hit's this topic right on the head.

(June 6, 2014 at 4:59 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 7:27 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: What source do you have a problem with, the source you disagree with that compiled unbiased studies information in a manner you don't want to hear?

I have a problem with the user-generated source that disallows the citations of primary research.

It did cite primary research. You obviously have not viewed the footnotes.

(June 6, 2014 at 4:59 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:

Quote: This is sourced material, you and Waldorf want to pretend it's inaccurate because it upsets you, the same as the rampant sex abuse and child molestation in every Christian
denomination.

It does not upset me at all because I know even if your data are correct they are irrelevant. Morality cannot exist without God and this does nothing to support otherwise.

You are wrong, and cannot support that assertion, yet you keep throwing out there. Lots of societies do not believe in the Christian God. Those societies also have moral codes. Are you really this ignorant, and proud of it too, Wally?

I am living proof that you're wrong. Your morality includes the murder of children, rape of women, and keeping of slaves as moral. That's not morality, it's barbarism. You're also admitting that your mother was an absolute failure of a mother, and that you need a written cheat sheet to convince people you are a moral person with a conscience.



Congratulations. You've just admitted to being a sociopath. I sincerely hope you don't own firearms, or frequent areas with lots of children, or reproduce more sociopaths.

(June 6, 2014 at 4:59 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:

Quote: http://m.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why...story.html

Those poor atheists; nobody likes them.

You're a sick man, you know that?

(June 6, 2014 at 4:59 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: White Americans gained an awful lot through the antebellum slave trade of the 18th and 19th Centuries, the Germans gained a vast amount of scientific knowledge through conducting scientific tests on the Jewish people so were those acts morally justified then?

Your bible was used to justify those acts.

(June 6, 2014 at 4:59 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: How do you know this? If a person stipulates that child rape is morally good then child rape is morally good?

If Christians get their morality from God and The Bible, is that why they can't stop raping kids?

At this point, given your unsupported assertions, I'm asserting the following:

Based on your view of morality, and that humans will always behave selfishly where God does not expressly forbid it: You are a child rapist. You have raped at least a dozen children this year. I know this because your Biblical morality does not prevent it, and you have stated morality can only come from God and the Bible. Isn't it time to stop, Wally? As a secular person, I'm begging you: Stop raping little children. You're scarring them for the rest of their lives. If you can't stop, you need secular help for your urges.

By the way, these page-long Gish gallops of yours are really tiresome.

(June 6, 2014 at 4:59 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:

(June 4, 2014 at 8:28 pm)Irrational Wrote: My position is that nobody, Christian or not, has access to absolute objective morality.

If I ask a Christian how they know what kind of killing is considered murder, chances are they won't resort to an invisible silent God for the answer. They'll try to rely on their reasoning faculty instead. Well, that's an indicator of subjective morality, not objective.

You’re trying to argue that the laws of deduction are subjective not objective? Or is that not what you meant by reasoning?

No, I wasn't arguing that. I don't see how you have failed at understanding the point I was making. A very simple point, mind you. Or was this supposed cluelessness a tactic you just employed to run away from the point I was making?

Quote:

Quote: So whether the Christian likes it or not, we're all in the same general boat with regards to the question of morality.

So you wish, but unfortunately for you the Christian can account for the existence of transcendent laws of morality that apply to all humans and you cannot.

I haven't seen one do that yet. Can you demonstrate to us what sort of killing objectively constitutes murder? Is slaughtering babies, for example, considered murder?

(June 6, 2014 at 5:03 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: It did cite primary research. You obviously have not viewed the footnotes.

Nope, you cited Wikipedia which is a tertiary source that disallows the citation of primary research. You need to read their user policy.

Quote: You are wrong, and cannot support that assertion, yet you keep throwing out there.

Have you not been reading this thread? Every atheistic attempt to define morality in a logically cogent and defensible manner fails horribly. That is support.

Quote: Lots of societies do not believe in the Christian God. Those societies also have moral codes. Are you really this ignorant, and proud of it too, wally?

You’re conflating belief with ontology. If I do not believe in the existence of gravity does that mean I can jump and never come down? If I do not believe in death does that mean I will never experience it? Whether or not someone believes god exists is irrelevant. God still has to exist in order for morality to exist.

Quote: I am living proof that you're wrong.

No, you’re inability to logically define morality is some of the best evidence I have and for that I thank you.

Quote: Your morality includes the murder of children, rape of women, and keeping of slaves as moral. That's not morality, it's barbarism.

No it does not. If God does not exist why would murder, rape, and infanticide be morally wrong?

Quote:
You're a sick man, you know that?

Why? Because I value rationality more than you do? Then guilty as charged.

Quote: Your bible was used to justify those acts.

As was Darwinism so your point is? Were those acts morally wrong if God does not exist?

Quote: If Christians get their morality from God and The Bible, is that why they can't stop raping kids?

If God does not exist then why is raping children morally wrong? You really cannot answer these simple questions?

Quote: I know this because your Biblical morality does not prevent it, and you have stated morality can only come from God and the Bible.

No, that’s not what I said. The God of scripture must exist in order for morality to exist.

Quote: Isn't it time to stop, Wally? As a secular person, I'm begging you: Stop raping little children. You're scarring them for the rest of their lives. If you can't stop, you need secular help for your urges.

If God does not exist then why is raping children morally wrong? I thought morality was subjective. It’s hilarious you cannot answer such a simple question.

Quote: By the way, these page-long Gish gallops are really tiresome.

Then stop replying, it’s obvious you’ve been beaten for quite some time now Mr. IQ.

Duck! Goose! Swan! Excuse my fowl language.

(June 6, 2014 at 5:08 pm)Irrational Wrote: No, I wasn't arguing that. I don't see how you have failed at understanding the point I was making. A very simple point, mind you. Or was this supposed cluelessness a tactic you just employed to run away from the point I was making?

Correct me if I am wrong but did you not say that Christian morality is subjective because they have to appeal to their reasoning? How does using logical discernment make something subjective? Or was that nothing more than rhetorical fluff?

Quote:I haven't seen one do that yet. Can you demonstrate to us what sort of killing objectively constitutes murder? Is slaughtering babies, for example, considered murder?

Sure, murder is any killing of another person that violates God’s decreed will.

We aren't supposed to say anything, because we don't owe Christians an explanation of our morals. They can't justify theirs, so why should we?