(June 10, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Lek Wrote: When this woman killed her children, it wasn't God's fault and it wan't Satan's fault. It was the woman's fault. She had the freedom to do it or not and she chose to do it.

I agree. I don't think anyone's reasonably arguing that “God“ or “the devil“ made her do it, except for what she may have thought was happening.

On the other hand, it's notable that neither character (or any god at all) stepped in and prevented it, isn't it?

(June 10, 2014 at 5:39 am)Tonus Wrote:

(June 10, 2014 at 2:32 am)Theonewhoanswersyourquestions Wrote: I don't know how many times this needs to be said before you understand, God give us the free will to do what we want, but since we are flawed in sinned, out body I flawed also, it is not Gods will that the children were harmed or that the insane woman harmed these children,

Right. God gave us free will and a 'body' that cannot help but try to do what is wrong in his eyes. Yet it pains him to see us do wrong, which he cannot for some reason prevent. Or as god says, "being omniscient doesn't mean that I know EVERYTHING!"

So tell me, is it possible for humans to have free will yet never sin?

Honestly, yes it is possible, yet we are born in sin, there is still a choice WE make, so what we do is our choice, yet knowing that man still sins, and I find that God knows everything, can PREDICT the future, but does not exactly what will happen, only guess at what would happen, therefore that is why he does not intervene, we'll actually sometimes he does intervene, in certain instances

(June 10, 2014 at 1:45 pm)Theonewhoanswersyourquestions Wrote: Honestly, yes it is possible, yet we are born in sin, there is still a choice WE make, so what we do is our choice, yet knowing that man still sins, and I find that God knows everything, can PREDICT the future, but does not exactly what will happen, only guess at what would happen, therefore that is why he does not intervene, we'll actually sometimes he does intervene, in certain instances

Looks like we can scratch omniscience off the list.

(June 10, 2014 at 1:40 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(June 10, 2014 at 12:37 pm)Lek Wrote: When this woman killed her children, it wasn't God's fault and it wan't Satan's fault. It was the woman's fault. She had the freedom to do it or not and she chose to do it.

I agree. I don't think anyone's reasonably arguing that “God“ or “the devil“ made her do it, except for what she may have thought was happening.

On the other hand, it's notable that neither character (or any god at all) stepped in and prevented it, isn't it?

The devil wouldn't want to stop her and if God allows our free will he won't stop it either.

(June 10, 2014 at 1:54 pm)Lek Wrote: The devil wouldn't want to stop her and if God allows our free will he won't stop it either.

I'm better than God then. Despite my children's free will I didn't allow them to play in traffic.

(June 10, 2014 at 1:46 pm)Cato Wrote:

(June 10, 2014 at 1:45 pm)Theonewhoanswersyourquestions Wrote: Honestly, yes it is possible, yet we are born in sin, there is still a choice WE make, so what we do is our choice, yet knowing that man still sins, and I find that God knows everything, can PREDICT the future, but does not exactly what will happen, only guess at what would happen, therefore that is why he does not intervene, we'll actually sometimes he does intervene, in certain instances

Looks like we can scratch omniscience off the list.

We'll God does know all, just not psychic, he knows what's in our heads and knows what were planning to do, but doesn't know exactly what will happen, we may change our mind in the act, the Gods prediction, if he predicted that outcome, would be false

(June 10, 2014 at 1:45 pm)Theonewhoanswersyourquestions Wrote: Honestly, yes it is possible, yet we are born in sin, there is still a choice WE make, so what we do is our choice, yet knowing that man still sins, and I find that God knows everything, can PREDICT the future, but does not exactly what will happen, only guess at what would happen, therefore that is why he does not intervene, we'll actually sometimes he does intervene, in certain instances

But the imperfect human does NOT have the choice to not sin. In Romans 7:14-25, Paul admits that he seeks to do what is right but cannot avoid committing sin, and expresses his despair at his lowly state ("What a wretched man I am!"). Thus the notion that we bear the full responsibility for our decisions seems false-- we have been corrupted and cannot help but to sin. Humanity has been cursed by god before all but two of us (Adam and Eve) had the opportunity to prove ourselves.

Imagine if humanity had been allowed to continue to be born perfect and had the opportunity to see the cost of sin (via Adam and Eve) before we were cursed with it? How many humans would have decided to side with god once they understood what they stood to lose? Instead, they lost it before they got the opportunity, only to be told that god had a complicated plan that involved a rough weekend and which would result in his making us an offer we couldn't refuse. That seems awfully sloppy and terribly unfair.

(June 10, 2014 at 2:02 pm)Cato Wrote:

(June 10, 2014 at 1:54 pm)Lek Wrote: The devil wouldn't want to stop her and if God allows our free will he won't stop it either.

I'm better than God then. Despite my children's free will I didn't allow them to play in traffic.

I'd say a good portion of the population is better than the Abrahamic god.

(June 10, 2014 at 2:07 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(June 10, 2014 at 1:45 pm)Theonewhoanswersyourquestions Wrote: Honestly, yes it is possible, yet we are born in sin, there is still a choice WE make, so what we do is our choice, yet knowing that man still sins, and I find that God knows everything, can PREDICT the future, but does not exactly what will happen, only guess at what would happen, therefore that is why he does not intervene, we'll actually sometimes he does intervene, in certain instances

But the imperfect human does NOT have the choice to not sin. In Romans 7:14-25, Paul admits that he seeks to do what is right but cannot avoid committing sin, and expresses his despair at his lowly state ("What a wretched man I am!"). Thus the notion that we bear the full responsibility for our decisions seems false-- we have been corrupted and cannot help but to sin. Humanity has been cursed by god before all but two of us (Adam and Eve) had the opportunity to prove ourselves.

Imagine if humanity had been allowed to continue to be born perfect and had the opportunity to see the cost of sin (via Adam and Eve) before we were cursed with it? How many humans would have decided to side with god once they understood what they stood to lose? Instead, they lost it before they got the opportunity, only to be told that god had a complicated plan that involved a rough weekend and which would result in his making us an offer we couldn't refuse. That seems awfully sloppy and terribly unfair.

Paul says this knowing he can't be perfect, and knowing most people cannot either, sin is too appealing to the human eye, so yes, it is our fault

And if we would have given the choice to choose again, it would have saddened God more and more, because time an time again we would have chosen sin, not purposely, but still would have committed sin, knowing it is wrong, hell, even I sin sometimes, inside I know it's wrong but I mess up, and God forgives me of my sin, and forgives all sin if the commiter truly sees the error of ways and repents

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(June 10, 2014 at 2:02 pm)Cato Wrote:

(June 10, 2014 at 1:54 pm)Lek Wrote: The devil wouldn't want to stop her and if God allows our free will he won't stop it either.

I'm better than God then. Despite my children's free will I didn't allow them to play in traffic.

We'll no, God is almighty and no one is better than him, and there's always an opportunity to stop something from happening, you stopping the kid from running in traffic, is an example of that

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(June 10, 2014 at 2:14 pm)Starvald Demelain Wrote:

(June 10, 2014 at 2:02 pm)Cato Wrote: I'm better than God then. Despite my children's free will I didn't allow them to play in traffic.

I'd say a good portion of the population is better than the Abrahamic god.

And no, no one is greater than God, just saying that proves you are worse

(June 10, 2014 at 2:07 pm)Tonus Wrote: [quote='Theonewhoanswersyourquestions' pid='685533' dateline='1402422304']Honestly, yes it is possible, yet we are born in sin, there is still In Romans 7:14-25, Paul admits that he seeks to do what is right but cannot avoid committing sin, and expresses his despair at his lowly state ("What a wretched man I am!"). Thus the notion that we bear the full responsibility for our decisions seems false-- we have been corrupted and cannot help but to sin. Humanity has been cursed by god before all but two of us (Adam and Eve) had the opportunity to prove ourselves.

Paul wasn't saying here it was impossible to not sin. He said that, try as he could, he was unable to keep from sinning. It is true that all have sinned, but God didn't say that it was impossible not to sin. It's in our nature to sin and we must rely on a supernatural power to be saved.