I am going to present something here for people who think that atheism has more value than any amount of pleasure through religious belief (even perhaps the greatest amount of pleasure a human being can have through belief in religion). No amount of intelligence or great things we do in life will ever make up for a lack of pleasure because in order to have such value towards these things is to have pleasure in the first place (as pleasure is what allows us to give value in terms of emotion towards these things). So it would be illogical to say that these things have greater value than our pleasure. Now if you were to somehow have value towards something with no pleasure, then this value would be nothing as it is nothing more than a thought. Pleasure is what gives any notion of value life and without pleasure, it would be completely dead. Therefore, pleasure is the only thing that matters and any notion of value is just a thought and nothing more. It is the processes in our own brains that give these things value. Without such a process (which would be the process of experiencing pleasure in the brain), then they will have no value.

I suppose you can break all of this down to pleasure as long as you include:

The pleasure of "doing the right thing,"
Including the pleasure to others.
Valuation of short term Vs long term pleasure.

All of the above are probably evolutionary developments to further the species.

In other words you can express this all in terms of pleasure gained but that doesn't yield the hedonistic world the approach might imply.

In that light I'd put religious pleasure in the same category as any other addiction, plus, it tends to score badly on including the pleasure of others.

I don't have a problem with someone who wants to snort cocaine in the privacy of their own home. I would have a huge problem if those coke users decided that everybody else must do it as well, and tried to use the legal system and the government to force it up my nose.

If you catch my drift.

(June 11, 2014 at 3:58 am)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: I don't have a problem with someone who wants to snort cocaine in the privacy of their own home. I would have a huge problem if those coke users decided that everybody else must do it as well, and tried to use the legal system and the government to force it up my nose.

If you catch my drift.

Or if they tried to get the government to fund their habit, gave it tax free status and so on....

The pleasure in Atheism comes from not having to worry if you'll be damned for all eternity because you did something that the big guy upstairs might be unhappy with.

Personally, I'd struggle to find any pleasure in the circle jerk of organised religion. Nor do the fundies either it seems - they always appear to be the most hateful people.

I get the distinct impression that what you (the OP) would really like is to be a Jedi knight. You'd like there to be unambiguously good deeds to do. Christianity is the closest you can find to 'the force' outside of a Comic-con. If only it were true.

Meh. My highest desire is to know the world and myself on their own terms. I don't long for the world to be a fairy tale. I don't want to play a part; I want to know the whole.

(June 11, 2014 at 2:02 am)Mozart Link Wrote: I am going to present something here for people who think that atheism has more value than any amount of pleasure through religious belief (even perhaps the greatest amount of pleasure a human being can have through belief in religion). No amount of intelligence or great things we do in life will ever make up for a lack of pleasure because in order to have such value towards these things is to have pleasure in the first place (as pleasure is what allows us to give value in terms of emotion towards these things). So it would be illogical to say that these things have greater value than our pleasure. Now if you were to somehow have value towards something with no pleasure, then this value would be nothing as it is nothing more than a thought. Pleasure is what gives any notion of value life and without pleasure, it would be completely dead. Therefore, pleasure is the only thing that matters and any notion of value is just a thought and nothing more. It is the processes in our own brains that give these things value. Without such a process (which would be the process of experiencing pleasure in the brain), then they will have no value.

I think I am going to save this atheist theology as more evidence that we are looking very similar to a religion.

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(June 11, 2014 at 6:40 am)whateverist Wrote: I get the distinct impression that what you (the OP) would really like is to be a Jedi knight. You'd like there to be unambiguously good deeds to do. Christianity is the closest you can find to 'the force' outside of a Comic-con. If only it were true.

Meh. My highest desire is to know the world and myself on their own terms. I don't long for the world to be a fairy tale. I don't want to play a part; I want to know the whole.

Yeah sound sounds nice and sweet. What you need to do is look away from the mirror. It does start with you, but it don't end there. You remind me of a horse with blinders. And all you see is "you" in a "limited world" on that mirror's reflection.

With this out look you may not see the "world" as it is. I mean you say this, but you have a lot of background noise. So half of your view scewed.

Then we look at the second component "you". I am guessing that you do not always "see" how you "fit" and that in many cases you put what you "want to be" in front of "what will happen to us all".

I'm going to restate something here to back up the point I just made in my opening post for anyone who might disagree with it which is that I'm an atheist with the mentality of a religious person who seeks self-enlightenment and even though a positive perspective can be achieved through atheism, some people are better off with their positive perception of religion. Atheism recognizes the reality of situations (in this case, there being no God and no afterlife). Even though it is good to recognize the reality of a situation in most cases, this is not always the case. In situations where not recognizing the reality of a situation does no harm to you or anyone else and brings you personal pleasure, then recognizing the reality of the situation is pointless. In other words, since believing in God and such would do me no harm and wouldn't make me harm others and would bring me personal pleasure in life, it would be pointless for me to be an atheist that I am now.

(June 11, 2014 at 9:46 am)Mozart Link Wrote: Even though it is good to recognize the reality of a situation in most cases, this is not always the case.

Yes, it is always the case.

It is always preferable and more reasonable to want the harsh truth over the comfortable lie. There is no valid argument in favor of preferring the fantasy over reality.

(June 11, 2014 at 9:46 am)Mozart Link Wrote: I'm going to restate something here to back up the point I just made in my opening post for anyone who might disagree with it which is that I'm an atheist with the mentality of a religious person

Atheism recognizes the reality of situations (in this case, there being no God and no afterlife).

In other words, since believing in God and such would do me no harm and wouldn't make me harm others and would bring me personal pleasure in life, it would be pointless for me to be an atheist that I am now.

How would you make yourself believe in God when you're an atheist who regards reality as being no God and no afterlife? Also, which version of God would you like to believe in seeing as there's more than one?