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RE: Bible prophecies
June 19, 2014 at 5:38 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2014 at 5:39 pm by Brian37.)
(June 18, 2014 at 8:07 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: [quote='Irrational' pid='690005' dateline='1402977505']
Context. Did the generation He was speaking to witness the things He was speaking of? (Matt 24:29-34)
(June 16, 2014 at 11:58 pm)Irrational Wrote: Because it makes sense in light of the explanation that Jesus believed the kingdom of God was imminent and that once it came, there would no longer be death. I don't fully understand what you mean. If you don't mind I'd like a little further explanation here.
(June 17, 2014 at 1:25 am)Cinjin Wrote:
Nope. I'm saying that the generation Jesus was speaking to is not the generation He was speaking of. To fit your analogy to your argument, the crowd He'd be speaking to would be reflected by the content of the speech. In this case the content is defined as the characteristics of the fish He was describing (speckled green). So according to your argument the crowd would all have to be fish, and speckled green. To fit my argument He'd be speaking to a crowd about a fish and the crowd would not be reflected by the content of the speech (they wouldn't be fish, or speckled green). Your analogy actually supports my argument.
Furthermore, it happens all the time in normal conversation that the person we are speaking to is not the person we are speaking about.
(June 17, 2014 at 1:38 am)Jenny A Wrote: Because when people say "this generation" they mean their own generation or at the very most the people living at the time "this generation" is said.
I was having a conversation with a historian. He said to me: "In the Late Middle Ages (1340–1400) Europe experienced the most deadly disease outbreak in history when the Black Death, the infamous pandemic of bubonic plague, hit in 1347, killing a third of the human population. It is believed that this generation subsequently became more violent as the mass mortality rate cheapened life and thus increased warfare, crime, popular revolt, waves of flagellants, and persecution." (this is a fictional conversation used as an illustration, facts taken from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubonic_pl...t_outbreak)
Is the historian speaking of his generation as the one that experienced the Black death?
(June 18, 2014 at 9:44 am)ThomM Wrote: The christ also said that there would be some people in his audience that would not die before he would return in GLORY - To what scripture passage are you referring?
(June 18, 2014 at 9:44 am)ThomM Wrote: Certainly his claimed resurrection had not glory - it did not fulfill the messiah prophecies -
Is your position that because Christ did not fulfill all the messianic prophecies prior to His crucifixion His resurrection had not glory?
(June 18, 2014 at 9:44 am)ThomM Wrote: there is NOT a single mention of it in the historical record of that time - and such glory would be widely known and reported. Quote:I can think of at least four historical records of that time that mention it.
Where you speaking to a historian or an apologist. A historian merely repeats facts "this is what people believed" and doesn't try to sell it as true. An apologist sells myth as true.
"Jesus said" is meaningless. There is no such thing as an invisible sky hero who clones himself and gets a girl pregnant without a second set of DNA.
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RE: Bible prophecies
June 19, 2014 at 5:57 pm
He's speaking of his fucking gospels which were written much later by people who weren't there.
Only a xtian shitwit would think that was contemporary history.
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RE: Bible prophecies
June 19, 2014 at 9:16 pm
At Brian:
I'm not arguing the legitimacy of what is written in the Bible. I think it's completely made up horse shit concocted by gullible fucktards. My only argument is that the Bible DOESN'T say what that filthy apologists claims it says.
That is all.
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RE: Bible prophecies
June 20, 2014 at 8:43 am
sure have.
Predict a flood, fire storm, or large ground shaking event?
how about cover a city in sand back then? That even came true
I tell my kids to predict the end of the world. somebody is going to be right, it mite as well be them.
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RE: Bible prophecies
June 22, 2014 at 2:16 am
(June 18, 2014 at 8:13 pm)Beccs Wrote: And those are? As Minimalist said, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John
(June 18, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Irrational Wrote: No, which is exactly why his prediction was a failure. Jesus said that the 'this generation' that would witness 'these things' would not perish until all 'these things' are fulfilled. The generation he was speaking to did not witness the 'these things' he was speaking of. Why have you then concluded he was speaking of them?
Furthermore, a failed prediction would be a generation witnessing 'these things' and yet perishing before the 'these things' are fulfilled. Did this happen?
(June 18, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Irrational Wrote: Jesus preached that the kingdom of God was near, right?
Yes
(June 18, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Irrational Wrote: And once it came, do you think he believed any of his followers who were still alive then would have still tasted death even after the kingdom of God had come already?
We first have to establish what the kingdom is and when it came/is to come. Christ did believe that some of his followers would taste death (John 21:18-19).
(June 18, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Irrational Wrote: Isn't the whole kingdom of God thing about being immortal and no longer having to fear death? Why do you think that?
Cinjin
As previously discussed, Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21 is in response to the questions of the destruction of the temple and the end of the world. Matthew 16 is an explanation of the events of Christ's crucifixion and the coming of the kingdom.
You're assuming the coming of the kingdom is the end of the world. Why?
(June 19, 2014 at 1:01 am)Cinjin Wrote: Hebrews 1:1-2
“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers
by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son…” Yes we are living in the 'last days'.
(June 19, 2014 at 1:01 am)Cinjin Wrote: 1 Corinthians 10:11
“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written
down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.”
Yes we are living in the time of the end of the ages.
(June 19, 2014 at 1:01 am)Cinjin Wrote: 1 John 2:18
“Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming,
so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.” Yes, the Antichrist is coming.
(June 19, 2014 at 1:01 am)Cinjin Wrote: Revelation 22:6,7,10,12,20
“And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.” And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.“”… Yes, His words are faithful and true, these things must soon take place, and He is coming quickly.
(June 19, 2014 at 1:01 am)Cinjin Wrote: Notice that Jesus didn’t say “that generation” – which would be the normal way of referring to a future generation. He said “this generation”. He also didn't say 'our generation'. As has been shown, using the words 'this generation' does not necessitate He was speaking of His generation.
(June 19, 2014 at 1:01 am)Cinjin Wrote: Jesus said that some of his listeners (and the high priest at his trial) would still be alive to see his return to Earth. His return to earth, or His resurrection?
(June 19, 2014 at 1:24 am)Jenny A Wrote: Obviously not as a historian he was talking about the generation living during the plague. But Jesus was talking in the present tense to the people right there in front of him. The historian was speaking in present tense to the person right in front of him.
(June 19, 2014 at 1:24 am)Jenny A Wrote: Jesus was referring to this generation standing before him, not some future generation.
No, He was referring to the generation that would see the future events noted in Matthew 24:29-31/Mark13:24-27/Luke21:25-28. It is the future events that qualify 'this generation' not who Jesus was speaking to. Read Mathew 24:29-34 straight through.
(June 19, 2014 at 1:24 am)Jenny A Wrote: What you are saying is disingenuous. It's like Clinton and the definition of "is". Any ordinary reading of the Bible leads to the conclusion that Jesus meant his own generation. Everything else is a weird stretch. Then why didn't He say 'my generation' or 'our generation', or 'your generation'? He said 'this generation'. I'm not seeking to define the word 'this' I'm seeking to qualify 'this generation'.
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
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RE: Bible prophecies
June 22, 2014 at 2:59 am
(June 22, 2014 at 2:16 am)orangebox21 Wrote: (June 18, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Irrational Wrote: No, which is exactly why his prediction was a failure. Jesus said that the 'this generation' that would witness 'these things' would not perish until all 'these things' are fulfilled. The generation he was speaking to did not witness the 'these things' he was speaking of. Why have you then concluded he was speaking of them?
I honestly don't get what you're asking here exactly. Are you implying that, because a prophecy failed, that therefore it couldn't have been predicted?
It's been shown, time and again, that people end up making false predictions and prophecies. So that sort of logical thinking (if I understood you right) is nowhere close to being reasonable.
Quote:Furthermore, a failed prediction would be a generation witnessing 'these things' and yet perishing before the 'these things' are fulfilled. Did this happen?
Yes, it did. They all perished before these things have yet to occur. In fact, they haven't even happened yet.
So false prophecy either way.
Quote:We first have to establish what the kingdom is and when it came/is to come. Christ did believe that some of his followers would taste death (John 21:18-19).
Well, it doesn't matter what John says as we're debating what another passage in another book is saying.
From my understanding, Jesus believed death would be no more once the kingdom came. So in light of this understanding, it makes perfect sense that he would say some in his time would not taste death, knowing that Jesus thought the kingdom was near.
Quote: (June 18, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Irrational Wrote: Isn't the whole kingdom of God thing about being immortal and no longer having to fear death?
Why do you think that?
Well, partly because that's what Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels implied.
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RE: Bible prophecies
June 22, 2014 at 2:59 am
Quote:As Minimalist said, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John
Not contemporary. In fact, they don't even claim to be contemporary. That shit comes from morons who just can't accept that they've been sold a bill of goods.
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RE: Bible prophecies
June 22, 2014 at 4:57 am
People from the middle ages spotted the "generation" problem and solved it by inventing the wandering Jew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandering_Jew
Quote:The Wandering Jew is a figure whose legend began to spread in Europe in the 13th century.[1]
The original legend concerns a Jew who taunted Jesus on the way to the Crucifixion and was then cursed to walk the earth until the Second Coming.
There you go. There's nothing religion can't solve by piling on more bullshit.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Bible prophecies
June 22, 2014 at 10:44 pm
(June 22, 2014 at 2:59 am)Irrational Wrote: I honestly don't get what you're asking here exactly. Are you implying that, because a prophecy failed, that therefore it couldn't have been predicted? No, sorry for the confusion. No, I'm not implying that this prophecy couldn't have been preached. It was preached, but has not yet been fulfilled.
(June 22, 2014 at 2:59 am)Irrational Wrote: Quote:Furthermore, a failed prediction would be a generation witnessing 'these things' and yet perishing before the 'these things' are fulfilled. Did this happen?
Yes, it did. No, the generation living at the time of Christ did not witness 'these things'. Therefore they could not have both witnessed 'these things' and perished.
(June 22, 2014 at 2:59 am)Irrational Wrote: They all perished before these things have yet to occur.
True.
(June 22, 2014 at 2:59 am)Irrational Wrote: In fact, they haven't even happened yet. True.
(June 22, 2014 at 2:59 am)Irrational Wrote: So false prophecy either way. Nope. A failed prophecy would be a generation witnessing 'these things' and perishing. Not witnessing these things or perishing.
(June 22, 2014 at 2:59 am)Irrational Wrote: Quote:We first have to establish what the kingdom is and when it came/is to come. Christ did believe that some of his followers would taste death (John 21:18-19).
Well, it doesn't matter what John says as we're debating what another passage in another book is saying. It's relevant to your question about whether or not Jesus believed the people He was speaking to would die. He did.
(June 22, 2014 at 2:59 am)Irrational Wrote: From my understanding, Jesus believed death would be no more once the kingdom came. So in light of this understanding, it makes perfect sense that he would say some in his time would not taste death, knowing that Jesus thought the kingdom was near. What scriptural reference led you to this conclusion?
(June 22, 2014 at 2:59 am)Irrational Wrote: Well, partly because that's what Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels implied. Where?
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
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RE: Bible prophecies
June 22, 2014 at 11:37 pm
(June 22, 2014 at 4:57 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: People from the middle ages spotted the "generation" problem and solved it by inventing the wandering Jew.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandering_Jew
Quote:The Wandering Jew is a figure whose legend began to spread in Europe in the 13th century.[1]
The original legend concerns a Jew who taunted Jesus on the way to the Crucifixion and was then cursed to walk the earth until the Second Coming.
There you go. There's nothing religion can't solve by piling on more bullshit.
The Wandering Jew is just another English fairy tale.
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