How come nobody every asks if there is life before you are born? Obviously you don't remember anything before you exist, why do you expect to be aware afterwards?

(July 4, 2014 at 7:45 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Does the idea of sacrifice itself, especially (and perhaps doubly so) as a part of a redemptive pass to heaven ever strike you as being poorly thought out?

That's an entirely different argument to be made, and truthfully it's hard to make sense out of it.
The way I see it is that, in the Bible, the human race loses sight of how to be good because the first human beings set the bar pretty low, and, in their search for God, resorts to the Torah, a set of rules that contain legitimate guidelines for social justice tampered with the regressive culture of the time.
Jesus walks onto the scene and claims that God can be found in him. He appears to be correct; his teachings filter out the good that is in the Torah and use it to create a model of how to live a moral life based on altruism. This upsets the Jewish elite and on the charge of attacking the societal norm, he is publicly humiliated and executed by the Roman government.
Of course, this is not absolute truth, but basically, the storyline of the Bible asserts that:

1. Mosaic law is all you have.
   
2. You would have gone to hell if you followed Mosaic Law because it sometimes advocates for bad things.
   
3. Jesus needed to give you something better than Mosaic Law, something that would get you to heaven.
   
4. For Jesus to give you a law that would get you to heaven, he would need to die.
   
5. Therefore, Jesus chose to die so that you could get to heaven.
   

Again, those were all blatant generalizations. That's just how it plays out.

The Old Testament doctrine doesn't teach heaven and hell. It teaches obedience and an ass whipping if you don't toe the line. There's no promise of going to heaven or hell in the Old Testament.

(July 4, 2014 at 11:50 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: The Old Testament doctrine doesn't teach heaven and hell. It teaches obedience and an ass whipping if you don't toe the line.

Maybe that's why we need to stop saying "The Bible says so-and-so." It contains a spectrum of people and their experiences.
Before Jesus, death was the end as much as it might be for some of you. The doctrine of any kind of permanency of the human being was part of Jesus' reform of Judaism.

(July 4, 2014 at 8:06 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: How come nobody every asks if there is life before you are born? Obviously you don't remember anything before you exist, why do you expect to be aware afterwards?

Oddles of people have asked that question. The Catholic answer was, or is limbo. I think the Mormons have a pre-birth concept. And then there's reincarnation which supposes you were here on earth being someone else.

But I agree with Twain: " “I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”


"

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(July 5, 2014 at 12:03 am)Purplundy Wrote:

(July 4, 2014 at 11:50 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: The Old Testament doctrine doesn't teach heaven and hell. It teaches obedience and an ass whipping if you don't toe the line.

Maybe that's why we need to stop saying "The Bible says so-and-so." It contains a spectrum of people and their experiences.
Before Jesus, death was the end as much as it might be for some of you. The doctrine of any kind of permanency of the human being was part of Jesus' reform of Judaism.

Interesting idea. Is it orthodox Catholic or all your own?

It suggests a truly horrible god who was willing to let Moses and many others die while he put off the blood sacrifice thing.

When someone alters a religion does it mean that the previous version was BS and the revisionist got the straight scoop directly from the deity's lips?

(July 4, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Purplundy Wrote: The way I see it is that, in the Bible, the human race loses sight of how to be good because the first human beings set the bar pretty low, and, in their search for God, resorts to the Torah, a set of rules that contain legitimate guidelines for social justice tampered with the regressive culture of the time.

Lol. Okay. Is this why christians reject the ten commandments?

(July 4, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Purplundy Wrote: Jesus walks onto the scene and claims that God can be found in him. He appears to be correct; his teachings filter out the good that is in the Torah

Yeah. Your jesus condoned slavery.

(July 4, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Purplundy Wrote: [*]Mosaic law is all you have.
[*]You would have gone to hell if you followed Mosaic Law because it sometimes advocates for bad things.

Like what exactly? Your jesus didn't care about people owning slaves, so I'm curious about what 'bad things' the old testament advocates that would get people sent to hell.

(July 4, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Purplundy Wrote: [*]Jesus needed to give you something better than Mosaic Law, something that would get you to heaven.

Is this why he never said anything against slavery?

(July 4, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Purplundy Wrote: [*]For Jesus to give you a law that would get you to heaven, he would need to die.

Maybe you can explain to me why an all-powerfull being 'would need to die' to give us a law. Thank you.

(July 4, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Purplundy Wrote: [*]Therefore, Jesus chose to die so that you could get to heaven.

I chose to die yesterday as well. This morning I woke up feeling quite refreshed.

(July 5, 2014 at 12:12 am)Jenny A Wrote: Interesting idea. Is it orthodox Catholic or all your own?

The Jesus figure introduced the afterlife question to Judeo-Christianity. That's a fact.

Quote:It suggests a truly horrible god who was willing to let Moses and many others die while he put off the blood sacrifice thing.

I don't see why they'd be worse off. These characters did good and bad in their lives just like everyone else. They didn't know any better.

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(July 5, 2014 at 12:21 am)Bibliofagus Wrote: Lol. Okay. Is this why christians reject the ten commandments?

Did Jesus speak out against the Ten Commandments?

Quote:Yeah. Your jesus condoned slavery.

I don't own Jesus. That would be slavery. What part of his teachings condone that?

Quote:Maybe you can explain to me why an all-powerfull being 'would need to die' to give us a law. Thank you.

Like I said, his teachings got him killed.
You're welcome.

(July 4, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Purplundy Wrote: Did Jesus speak out against the Ten Commandments?

No clue. When he listed them he appeared to be using a different metric than the rest of humanity however.

I do know he never spoke out against slavery.

(July 4, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Purplundy Wrote: I don't own Jesus. That would be slavery. What part of his teachings condone that?

Erm what? You don't own everything with the word 'your' in front of it. You don't own your mother, you don't own your children. Still, they are your mother and children.

Anyways: Your jesus speaks out about many people needing to change their game, but never once the slave owners get mentioned. Furthermore: you said that your jesus came to 'give us something better than mosaic law' and it's quite clear your jesus never wanted to change the slavery-part of mosaic law. He never spoke out against it.

(July 4, 2014 at 8:16 pm)Purplundy Wrote: Like I said, his teachings got him killed.
You're welcome.

How is this an answer to my question?

(July 5, 2014 at 1:05 am)Bibliofagus Wrote: Anyways: Your jesus speaks out about many people needing to change their game, but never once the slave owners get mentioned.

He didn't speak out against rapists, either. Or terrorists. Or child molesters.
"Love your neighbor as yourself" was the sum of Jesus' teaching. It probably saved him the energy of having to recite the equivalent of the U.S. Constitution whenever he ran into somebody. If treating people like property is in compliance with Jesus' message, then yes, Jesus Christ condoned the slave trade.
But giving that message put Jesus at risk of being killed. He apparently decided that giving the Jewish people his "law of love" was more important to him than his life. Hence, he made what we might call a 'sacrifice'.