(July 20, 2014 at 8:33 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Keep in mind, I'm referencing this without theology, I don't need it, neither do the narratives. That knowledge is bad is some self hating jews idea that they were better off without the law, as ignorant as they may have been. "Noble savage" sort of shit.

I suppose, but later Jews would disagree. There's a reason that there are so many Jewish lawyers. The Talmud reads an awful lot like common law. Refining the law of the Torah by analogy has been a Jewish pass time for generations. It's a stupid set of rules to waste that much time on, but the lessons learned in doing it are well worth having.

(July 20, 2014 at 11:56 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Which is powerful for the way it allows us to explore our experiences from the relative safety of fantasy. Somebody clearly didn't get enough beddy-by stories as a kid...lol. Of course it's fiction Thom - there's a dragon in it.

Actually - there are LOTS of beddy-by stories - there have been Hundreds of Thousands of different sects this nonsense over the centuries. Taken as a whole - the earth was created quite a number of time - by lots of different gods - for various reasons.

However - the basic problem with Xtianity and Islam are the claim of an ALMIGHTY - ALL knowing - All good SINGLE God of creation.

1 - IF only one being had the power of creation - it had to create everything - good and evil - and cannot be described only as all good.

2 - IF the god is the only Almighty being - as claimed - then there is no "fight" between it and a "Devil" - it should have the power to vanquish a "devil" (ie - evil) instantly. That it does not - either means it does not actually have the power - or it is knowingly allowing the evil it had to create - to exist. So - it is no better than evil itself.

3 - IF the god were real - why does it not prove itself to be so in a manner that cannot be interpreted any other way - through real and verifiable proof - to ALL humans. Remember - the majority of people on earth are not Xtians. AND for centuries - it could be said that the majority of people on earth never even heard of them.

The stories all include some type of - believe even if you do not see - clause. However - if even one person had the right not to believe until proven true (Thomas in the bible) Then it cannot be claimed that the god CANNOT show the truth to all.

(July 20, 2014 at 11:21 pm)ThomM Wrote:

(July 20, 2014 at 2:41 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I don't think that people who had no idea what evolution was could have ever intended to write an allegorical account of evolution.....it's an allegorical account -of the human experience- as experienced, by the originators of the tale and their intended audience.

Not Human Experience - it is the human ability to create Fiction

But -- us writers are always told, "Write what you know." And while the story might be fiction, the deeper truth is not -- it is what the writer knew, as his moral truth. That is, I think, the point Rhythm is making, if he'll forgive me for summating it so.

One interesting idea I've heard bandied about when it comes to this story, which I might eventually take up in my own writing, is the idea that Lucifer was actually the hero all along for challenging a tyrannical God in the face of impossible odds, then making his final act of rebellion the emancipation of mankind from God's absolute domination by exploiting the most idiotic placement of a forbidden tree I have ever seen.

(July 21, 2014 at 12:10 am)StealthySkeptic Wrote: One interesting idea I've heard bandied about when it comes to this story, which I might eventually take up in my own writing, is the idea that Lucifer was actually the hero all along for challenging a tyrannical God in the face of impossible odds, then making his final act of rebellion the emancipation of mankind from God's absolute domination by exploiting the most idiotic placement of a forbidden tree I have ever seen.

When you look at it, Lucifer and Prometheus aren't terribly different.

The real question is, why is this theme popular?

Because god is a dick.

I don't mind at all Thump. Spot on.


@Thom
I don't believe in the god of the OT, or any god. The problems with god are legion, lol. You're never going to hear me tell you that this story (or any story in the bible) is an argument in favor of djinn. Let me ask you a few questions though, bounce back your opinions - if you'd like.

-Is the god of the garden narrative good? It lied to two people who must have held it in very high esteem. When it's lie was discovered -it put a curse on them. While later accounts might try to make the claim that god is all good, the writer of this story was definitely not painting us a picture of Buddy Jesus. To be truthful god is as much a prop as the tree in this story. Why does god need to be all good, or even a little bit good?

-Sure, a super-duper god could beat the shit out of a rinky dink demon - but the writer of this story would have surely noticed that evil exists in the world. So he didn't write some horseshit about how god came in with a thundering sword and smote evil into the ground forever and ever and everyone lived happily, ever, after...... He made a dragon eat dust - that's as far as he was willing to go to pursue the end of evil at this point in the narrative. Again, he cursed Adam and Eve, he's clearly dishing out some evil magic. Do you get the sense that the narrator was actually trying to overcome the problem of god and evil...in this story?

-The god isn't real, and no god was revealing himself in this story. It was spoken by a human voice, penned by a human hand, full of human problems. Thump summed it up better than I. Why is this a problem for the story?

(July 21, 2014 at 12:15 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(July 21, 2014 at 12:10 am)StealthySkeptic Wrote: One interesting idea I've heard bandied about when it comes to this story, which I might eventually take up in my own writing, is the idea that Lucifer was actually the hero all along for challenging a tyrannical God in the face of impossible odds, then making his final act of rebellion the emancipation of mankind from God's absolute domination by exploiting the most idiotic placement of a forbidden tree I have ever seen.

When you look at it, Lucifer and Prometheus aren't terribly different.

The real question is, why is this theme popular?

Well, I suppose that other than the fact that Prometheus is supposed to be seen as heroic and Lucifer as the villain you're right, they really aren't all that different. Actually, in the original draft, the character that would later become Lucifer was actually supposed to be the "devil's advocate"- haha- who would present God with the death penalty for people who sinned and after a mock trial God would grant them mercy.

I suppose it depends on which theme you're talking about- the idea that humans will bring disaster upon themselves if they are too curious, or the idea that one lone hero will bring back great things for being too curious yet living through it? Perhaps they're two sides of the same coin. Perhaps that's why we like the basic Campbellian hero's journey myth that's in everything from Hercules to Sundiata to Star Wars.

I say this because perhaps we as a species were/are afraid of what's out there lurking in the dark and commend the people who have the nads to venture forth where most of us would crap ourselves and bring fire, save the princess and slay the dragon, blow up the Death Star, etc. It's perhaps the oral tales of the first legends among us that made us all a little braver. Hopefully, one day, Lucifer will be recognized as the hero he is.

(One last thing I want to note. Obviously Prometheus's sacrifice was greater but he doesn't get half the credit Jesus does. I mean, imagine getting your liver eaten by a Middle Earth-sized eagle for decades. That's definitely worse than dying after a few hours- by the way, crucifixion victims were only supposed to die after days, maybe even weeks of agony- and then going to sleep for three days.)

A minor note, don't let this stop yall's discussion in any way, please.....but lucifer isn't a character in the narrative. The serpent in the garden is just a dragon, not the devil. We get that idea from later finagling.

(July 21, 2014 at 12:42 am)Rhythm Wrote: A minor note, don't let this stop yall's discussion in any way, please.....but lucifer isn't a character in the narrative. The serpent in the garden is just a dragon, not the devil. We get that idea from later finagling.

I understand that completely. I'm just working my analysis based on the "whole Biblical narrative" as it's most commonly interpreted if you will. What do you think of my core idea though on why these themes endure?