I don't understand why this clearly religious thread is clouding the philosophy forums.

How can that be ? It came with valid arguments from the Quran. But I guess it is normal, in fact, it is a very old trick. . since the beginning of mankind

• The people of Noah denied before them, and they denied Our servant and said, "A madman," and he was repelled. 54.9
  
  You are not, by the favor of your Lord, a madman. 68.2

Try presenting it with some creativity. . . he. . .

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(August 2, 2014 at 6:06 am)bennyboy Wrote: I don't understand why this clearly religious thread is clouding the philosophy forums.

Nope, no god, no religion (accept all religions and gods, all religious and non-religious books), no same belief with other religions or denominations, no nonsense and logic . . it is just my logical philosophy for "one nation" from premises of the Quran.

Quote:atheists often disagree on many issues and ideas. Atheists come in a variety of shapes, colors, beliefs, convictions, and backgrounds. We are as unique as our fingerprints. What is Atheism

(August 2, 2014 at 5:54 am)Muslim Atheism Wrote: Logical Premises for No Religion

People can be Muslim without faith



People can be Muslim even if they disbelieve in Allah, hell, paradise, angels or any myth and religious superstition etc. The following is the minimum requirement of a Muslim.

• The bedouins say, “We have believed.”
  Say, “You have not believed;
  but say, ‘We have submitted,’
  for faith has not yet entered your hearts.
  And if you obey Allah and His Messenger
  He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything.
  Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”
  49.14-15

Now, we are finally getting to it

What has been confusing everyone is that you keep saying you are atheist. It is plain now that you are in fact a muslim and are happy as a muslim. Whether or not you actually consider yourself an atheist because of your disbelief in any god is irrelevant (except to yourself) and secondary to what you see as most important, ie following the quran and being a good muslim.

Have I got that about right?

Without prejudice on either side MA, , try to look at this from our point of view.
If you fast, pray five times a day, follow the quran and do everything a muslim does then that makes you a muslim.
As you say, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck , quacks like a duck then it is a duck.

In your own mind you may consider your "atheism" (ie disbelief without rebellion) to be an important distinction. There may be some others like you (I read some articles yesterday).

I think I now understand you much better. However, I do not agree with you.
I disagree on a few points:
Although Unity of the human race and universal brotherhood would be a good thing I don't agree that the only way is through the quran.

I don't agree that secularism is a religion.

Also, other types of atheism exist apart from your own; you must accept they are equally valid

How about we now go forward from here and discuss while agreeing to disagree on certain points?

(August 2, 2014 at 8:08 am)vodkafan Wrote: Now, we are finally getting to it :thinking:

What has been confusing everyone is that you keep saying you are atheist. It is plain now that you are in fact a muslim and are happy as a muslim. Whether or not you actually consider yourself an atheist because of your disbelief in any god is irrelevant (except to yourself) and secondary to what you see as most important, ie following the quran and being a good muslim.

Have I got that about right?

Have you seen any conventional Muslim who practices all religions and believes in all gods ?

. . .

(August 2, 2014 at 8:08 am)vodkafan Wrote: Without prejudice on either side MA, , try to look at this from our point of view.
If you fast, pray five times a day, follow the quran and do everything a muslim does then that makes you a muslim.
As you say, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck , quacks like a duck then it is a duck.

No. . I don't believe the Pillars of Islam.
I don't pray five times a day
I and my family don't fast for the whole month of Ramadhan
I don't pay zakat to the government
I don't believe in pilgrimage , I don't believe in the Kaabah . . .
and I don't believe the shahada is the condition for becoming a Muslim
People can become Muslim even they don't believe in Allah. . .
I don't believe Muslim cannot keep dogs etc. . .
I don't believe in the Hijab, stoning, etc. . .

In summary, I don't believe all the nonsense not from the Quran. . .
and there is no such things in the Muslim Atheism.

I just read the Quran and apply the one that have a rational reason from it.
What's not from the Quran is freedom, do if you like. . leave if you don't like. .
It is spirituality and never unfairly criticize other religions without valid premises, provided always it is just and not an oppression to the public (ie. criminal action)


. . .

(August 2, 2014 at 8:08 am)vodkafan Wrote: In your own mind you may consider your "atheism" (ie disbelief without rebellion) to be an important distinction. There may be some others like you (I read some articles yesterday).

Acceptance of all religions and all gods is the core value to proof that there is "No God" and "No Religion".

• As for those who divide up their deen (دِينَهُمْ) and form into sect/religion (شِيَعًا)
  you have nothing whatsoever to do with them
  6.159
  
  For you is your deen (sectarianism, traits of Atheism and Theism)
  and for me is my deen (unity in diversity and assimilating with all people, one nation)
  (109.6)

One cannot disbelieve in other Gods by creating new God
One cannot disbelieve in other religions by creating new same religion
It is merely repetition and meaningless.

. . .

(August 2, 2014 at 8:08 am)vodkafan Wrote: I think I now understand you much better. However, I do not agree with you.
I disagree on a few points:
Although Unity of the human race and universal brotherhood would be a good thing I don't agree that the only way is through the quran.

It is okay. . other people are free to choose other Books or references.
I have the same believe, but in my case, I follow the Quran merely as the "starting point"
and it ends to follow all religious and non religious books. . . (refer here)


. . .

(August 2, 2014 at 8:08 am)vodkafan Wrote: I don't agree that secularism is a religion.

I didn't say secularism, I say "sectarianism is a religion"

. . .

(August 2, 2014 at 8:08 am)vodkafan Wrote: Also, other types of atheism exist apart from your own; you must accept they are equally valid

Of course, on certain point . . . and this is merely my personal philosophy. . .
not even a religion or denominations

"no sectarianism" and "one nation" is the main theme in this philosophy. . .
accordingly, I must accept all religions and gods. . . etc.

• refusal = sectarian = religion

ie. defeating my main philosophy of "No Religion". . .

Therefore, there is no religion, no community, no group, no leader, no founder, no idols etc. . .
Only the Quran and "One Nation", just vs unjust. . .
and the only possible community is "NGO", ie. for humanity.

Freedom of religion. . .

(July 30, 2014 at 5:17 am)Muslim Atheism Wrote: ie. people shall not dispute others in relation to:

• 1. Faith and Scriptures;
  2. God;
  3. Rituals and Practices.

• There shall be no compulsion in matters of faith.
  The right course has become clear from the wrong.
  So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it.
  And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
  2.256
  
  Indeed, We sent down to you the Book for the people in truth.
  So whoever is guided - it is for [the benefit of] his soul;
  and whoever goes astray only goes astray to its detriment.
  And you are not a manager over them.
  39.41
  
  So remind, you are only a reminder.
  You are not over them a controller.
  However, he who turns away and disbelieves
  Then Allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.
  Indeed, to Us is their return.
  Then indeed, upon Us is their account.
  88:21-26
  
  And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed - all of them entirely.
  Then, would you compel the people in order that they become believers?
  And it is not for a soul to believe except by permission of Allah
  and He will place defilement upon those who will not use reason.
  10.99-100

@Muslim Atheism
Which verses in the Quran tell us that we should accept all gods? The verses you listed only tell us that we should be tolerant of other believers. The Quran states multiple times that Allah is the one true god and that any association with Him is a sin.

(July 30, 2014 at 5:17 am)Muslim Atheism Wrote: God is our Lord and your Lord (ie. their God, it is different God but acknowledge them)

• They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." (Trinity)
  And there is no god except the One (وَاحِدٌ) God. (Oneness)
  5.73

and Allah is not a God (refer here and the interpretation provision). . .and

• Say, "He is Allah , the One
  Allah, the Absolute
  (112.1-2)
  
  Therefore,
  
  It is You Oneness/Absolute/ALL we served
  and You Oneness/Absolute/ALL we ask for help.
  (1.5)
  . . .
  Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is One
  (Isaiah 45:4) (Isaiah 46:5-9) (Isaiah 44:6)
  . . .
  And call no man your father upon the earth: for One is your Father, which is in heaven (Mathew 23:9)

The proof , there is no ideology of "Allah or God Alone" in the Quran. . . . (refer here)

Therefore. . . the system based on services to all, humanity, One Nation, Oneness. . . the balance between just vs. unjust. . . the Sunnatullah (justly balanced).

Going the same way as rev huh? This one is even more bananas.

ETA: is he really quoting himself?

The One is ALL. . .

(July 29, 2014 at 9:45 pm)Muslim Atheism Wrote: Main differences:

• Atheism : Reject ALL religions and ALL Gods.
  
  Theism : Accept their religion and their God(s) only.
  
  Muslim Atheism: Accept ALL religions and ALL Gods through the principle of justly balanced from the Quran (Confirming Function)

Therefore, there is no more bananas.