(May 31, 2010 at 8:20 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:You didn't answer my question.

Why can't the final warning be verbal? In fact, why can't all the warnings be verbal? Why do you have to resort to hitting someone to try and get your way?

its preferred to be verbal only as i mentioned before but the last choice may in some situation get u to a solution as if u r trying a year or year and a half maybe changing the way of wat u r doing can make her know its serious and tht u r done with that and also u dont know maybe this will work in some situations

Is the slapping bit a question of equal rights? I mean can the woman slap the man if he disobeys her?

(May 30, 2010 at 7:57 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote:

(May 30, 2010 at 7:24 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote: hitting her slightly with something like a toothbrush as a warning before divorce after a year of trying to change something which is ruining the family and its not preferable to do so and muhammed (pbuh) himself never did that(u r making a big deal of this)

What is the punishment a man gets from his wife when he is lewd or flirting?

Toothbrush beatings can be brutal.

http://www.greatbigstuff.com/toothbrush.html

Quote:Is the slapping bit a question of equal rights? I mean can the woman slap the man if he disobeys her?

you made it slapping after all this clarification? lol anyway if my wife hit me slightly with a toothbruch we wont be fighting

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Quote:Toothbrush beatings can be brutal.

http://www.greatbigstuff.com/toothbrush.html

lol you can make a good extremest bytheway

I've been doing a bit of online research into this myself and have found that the Muslim religion itself does not appear to be the primary source of the oppression of women in primarily Muslim countries. It is the culture and/or society itself that enforces such barbaric practices and those practices vary greatly from culture to culture (nation to nation).

So, the things that we western infidels find repugnant about Islamic culture cannot be entirely blamed on the religion itself. I think that mo3 has been trying to make that particular point. That does not mean that we hold any misconceptions. The atrocities that we have heard about are real, but they are not spread throughout the entirety of Muslim societies. Some are far more modernized and liberal in their approach. However, by western infidel standards, these 'more liberal' cultures still seem, at the least old-fashioned, and at worst barbaric. 'Not As Bad' does not equal 'Good'.

There is no justification for the way some Islamic cultures treat women. That is not a misconception. Not all Islamic cultures are guilty of the worst of it, so to think so would be a misconception. I think this issue is moot now. mo3 has shown (in his way) that his religion doesn't necessarily condone some of the barbaric practices we hear about, but he cannot change the truth, which is that these things do happen.

I request a change of topic, mo3. Personally, I'd like to hear a Muslim's take on suicide bombings, terrorism in general, and the 'kill all infidels' mentality of Jihadis.

(May 30, 2010 at 3:22 pm)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:The nature of religion is such that it is impossible to falsify or verify any specific religious interpretation with religion itself. Religion provides no means to do so since there is no shared mechanism to conclusively verify or falsify the various claims. At the core of every religion are unfalsifiable claims. Anybody can start his own religion today, based on quran or any text you choose and start interpreting away. It does not help to suggest, as you do, to verify the different interpretations of the quran with the history of islam because the history of religious interpretation says nothing on intrinsic truth. Just as the history of catholicism is not a case for the truth of catholicism. In fact history shows that right from the start controversy on interpretations has been around.

i disagree with u in this what anyone do is taking a text out of the Quran and ignoring others so they can do what they want to do these people power is in talking to non educated persons that cant even read or write as a 5 year old boy can answer them
and also u can use ur mind i myself when i want to know something i search in the Quran first and if i didnt understand i see the interpretation of scholars i trust if i read some interpretation for scholars i dont know i dont follow it blindly i just think about it(anyway we have interpretation from muhammed (pbuh) and from his closest companions and thats what u can trust

To start using your own mind is a good thing in my opinion. Start using the reason faculty you're equipped with and doubt both origin and content of quran texts. Than the question is not whether you should blindly follow ancient rules that are suposedly the teachings of an illiterate self-proclaimed hotline with god, jotted down and collected by many after him. Start asking whether this procedure ensures any authenticity and how to verify the claim of divine origin being made. Or start asking why the urge for total submission should be the hall mark of a good god.

Quote:

Quote:What is the punishment a man gets from his wife when he is lewd or flirting?

no punishment for that but if caught having sex its divorce and she dont have any financial rights except what she already own

That doesn't answer the question. I'm asking about what happens in the reverse situation. What punishment does she give him when he is bad? Should she beat him when he flirts or is lewd? Or are the beating and divorcing rules only for males to use?

What does a nine year old girl own when she is sold into marriage by her father? When she is tossed onto the street in a divorce, what does she own?

Why does your religion want women to be financially dependent on their husbands and owned like dogs? Islam is behind the times. Modern people don't practice slave-style-marriage anymore. That's why western women are happier. We have freedom to be the humans we are, not cattle or chattel. Your religion takes our freedom away from us. Modern secular society is more peaceful and fair to its citizens than islam. Do you really think that any free woman wants to give that up and become property of someone else?

Quote:at first am not proving anything am just telling u the truth about islam so ur beliefs can be based on something other than misconceptons.when using the Quran verses am just proving that this is what Islam says u not believing in it doesnt make any difference it will still says wat muslims do or wat they should do

If you claim something is the truth, then you must prove it. How else can others believe you?

Were you scared as a child when they said you must be good or allah will punish you? Is that the real reason you are religious, because of the threat and your fear of him?

Your god commands you to think nice thoughts about him. If you don't you will be punished. Would you think nice thoughts about a dictator just because they order you to do it?

Guess what? I have very good news for you. Allah is not real. He cannot hurt you after you die. Now you can follow your own heart instead of what other people tell you. You can ask questions without fear. You're welcome.

@ mo3taz3nbar:
The thing is that this will not ever come together since IMHO blind faith is not a virtue but a weakness. You present it the other way round.

Quote:There is no justification for the way some Islamic cultures treat women. That is not a misconception. Not all Islamic cultures are guilty of the worst of it, so to think so would be a misconception. I think this issue is moot now. mo3 has shown (in his way) that his religion doesn't necessarily condone some of the barbaric practices we hear about, but he cannot change the truth, which is that these things do happen.

I request a change of topic, mo3. Personally, I'd like to hear a Muslim's take on suicide bombings, terrorism in general, and the 'kill all infidels' mentality of Jihadis.

thnx paul for being objective there is only one thing i want to add that what you see as liberalization is how muslims lived 1400 years ago when they was all united and have the right understandings(there was no extremists back then) and am also againest the barbaric practices done in some countries as most of muslims
i am preparing now a thread about jihad vs terrorism and i will also keep this thread opened for any questions

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Quote:jotted down and collected by many after him

do some searches in that as its not true. the Quran was written as a whole in the life of muhammed(pbuh) by different companions what happened later is making more copies from the original(just after 2 years more copies madefrom the original. the original was written in his life)
its not like what happened with the bible thats why you never hear about Quran different versions am sorry that i cant get u evidance and links now(as am preparing for the next misconception) but maybe i will get to this later

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Quote:IMHO

what does that mean?

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@scented nectar
i cant answer like that you put about 3 or 4 wrong claims in each post some of them i dont even know what you mean by it you need to read more about Islam you cant get credible information from things like youtube you will just get mixed information
i will reply on the rights of woman when getting divorced as i didnt mention it
1-he cant throw her in the street even if he divorced her she have the right to stay in the home for 4 months as i mentioned in previous post
2-he have to spend on her as long as she is not married again(the court decide the amount of money paid every month if he didnt pay he goes to jail)
3-as she can write anything she wants in the contract of marriage most of the women getting married write an amount of money in case of divorce(i wrote about 30000 dollars)
4-about women dont have her own property or financial security plz read my first post
at the end of that U CAN WRITE WHATEVER U WANT IN THE MARRIAGE CONTRACT

Quote:the Quran was written as a whole in the life of muhammed(pbuh)

Yeah...yeah....mohammad fell asleep in a cave and "god" talked to him....and jesus walked out in the desert and "god" spoke to him....and moses went up on a mountain and "god" spoke to him...

"God" must be shy? How come its always one asshole who claims that god talked to him and lots of people like you waste your time worshiping such obvious frauds? Why can't "god" speak to crowds?

Why not follow joseph smith and his silly mormons? If you willingly accept God 1.3 you should be willing to throw that aside for God 1.4. Mormons are just as bat shit crazy as muslims, xtians or jews.
You should be right at home.

Hi guys sorry I'm late on this, you used all the best comebacks

(May 30, 2010 at 8:31 am)mo3taz3nbar Wrote:

Quote:1. Finding the most liberal sounding bits of the koran, and then taking the most liberal possible interpretation of them. Rather shockingly, this still supports wife-beating.

there is nothing called liberal possible interpretation but there is something called u cant take a part from the Quran and forget about the rest and ignore the interpretation of muhammed(pbuh) himself or his companions if someone start saying his own opinion and interpretation of the Quran and then believe it and start following it and ignoring a lot of Quran and sunnah thats is called the extremest and they are minority(those are the ppl u see in tv)

Interpretation, by a man, a fallible man, no evidence exists that this man was divine.
That was society a very long time ago, how come there are no progressive modern prophets that turn up and prove they are holy? A man living a long time ago;
I'm thinking he's probably a bit like the scum you see down the estates round here. A man, a powerless man in this uncertain universe, the only control he can have over anything is not his life at all, it's the life of the women he beats into submission. After learning the vile art of mental control and deception through physical violence and probably emotional abuse aswel, he finds a way to decieve masses of people to live by his say so, using the most notable religious activity in history; believe what I say or I'll kill you.
Atleast the estate scum don't think they are doing the will of some fantastic creator.

If you renounce your religion you can discover the true beauty & beast that is real life and live off our moral compass that comes from being Human atleast then you are being honest with yourself, or instead believe in fairy tales to your grave, leaving only a legacy of abuse and ignorance, never accepting reality, and passing it down to future generations, which when they break free of your ludicrous beliefs will look at you as we view witch burners now.

Edit: lol Minimalist have you been watching the south park mormon episodes? dumb dum dumb dum dumb..