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Science: A Religion? (long post)
September 7, 2014 at 11:07 am
(This post was last modified: September 7, 2014 at 11:24 am by ManMachine.)
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Science: A Religion? (long post)
September 7, 2014 at 11:25 am
(This post was last modified: September 7, 2014 at 11:26 am by Diablo.)
I suppose if you take all the theoretical musings out of it, science works most of the time. I have hypertension and if I'd lived fifty years ago I would have died young. I take 2 pills a day and I still breath thanks to science.
Science has made us live longer and better, which religion never did. We don't have to cower in the face of a vicious god and we don't have to slaughter each other in his name either.
The next time you decry science try living without it.
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RE: Science: A Religion? (long post)
September 7, 2014 at 11:42 am
(September 7, 2014 at 11:25 am)Diablo Wrote: I suppose if you take all the theoretical musings out of it, science works most of the time. I have hypertension and if I'd lived fifty years ago I would have died young. I take 2 pills a day and I still breath thanks to science.
Science has made us live longer and better, which religion never did. We don't have to cower in the face of a vicious god and we don't have to slaughter each other in his name either.
The next time you decry science try living without it.
I acknowledge that in the short term we perceive knowledge and technology as delivering progress, but that this should translate into species progress cannot be substantiated. Religion and the social structures around it almost certainly improved the lives of its followers, there are studies that demonstrate empirical evidence that 'belief' has a positive effect on people. If you do not believe in a deity then you cannot believe god is vicious, only people are vicious and that hasn't changed.
As I said at the beginning I'm not anti-science, I'm not going to debate that with you.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Science: A Religion? (long post)
September 7, 2014 at 11:57 am
I'm glad you're not anti-science.
Religion and its structures cerainly improved the lives of some people, and killed lots of others. Crusades anyone?
You said 'belief' has a positive effect on people. Does that include the gay men who have been and still are being demonised and persecuted, or the christians in Saudi, or the women in any muslim country? The safest places to be are in the secular democracries of western Europe where the the level of religion is the lowest.
That's the point I was making: we don't have to believe in a god so we don't have to kill in his name. There are people who are sometimes vicious but we no longer accept that they can act in that fashion, and we punish them when they do, unlike in religious wars.
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RE: Science: A Religion? (long post)
September 7, 2014 at 12:05 pm
Science is the best way we currently have to negate religious or opinion based thought processes.
Science works whether you believe in it or not.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Science: A Religion? (long post)
September 7, 2014 at 12:13 pm
An excellent OP, but I think that excluding science as a religion is going to be pretty quick work.
If I drop a rock anywhere on the surface of this planet, it is going to fall at 9.8 m/s/s.
If I drop a rock anywhere on the surface of this planet, it is going to fall at 9.8 m/s/s, not matter how hard I pray that it does otherwise.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: Science: A Religion? (long post)
September 7, 2014 at 12:21 pm
(This post was last modified: September 7, 2014 at 12:21 pm by Anomalocaris.)
To believe what is verifiably true to be verifiably true, is not religion.
Nor is the belief that proceeding from an accumulation of verifiable truths gives higher likelihood of generating sound solutions to problems than proceeding from a central unsupported assertion backed by no demonstrably effective means of truth finding.
So no, science is not religion and the opposite of religion.
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RE: Science: A Religion? (long post)
September 7, 2014 at 12:34 pm
(This post was last modified: September 7, 2014 at 12:36 pm by Mudhammam.)
What advancement in human thinking, however non-linear such progression is in the long run, can be directly attributed to religious or theological thinking, rather than the rational and/or empirical principles that just so happened to be a secondary aspect of that religion's philosophical outlook?
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Science: A Religion? (long post)
September 7, 2014 at 12:42 pm
"Dear God of Science, please grant me the power to win consistently at the Lottery!"
:waits:
Nope, no god there either.
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RE: Science: A Religion? (long post)
September 7, 2014 at 1:39 pm
(This post was last modified: September 7, 2014 at 1:58 pm by ManMachine.)
(September 7, 2014 at 11:57 am)Diablo Wrote: I'm glad you're not anti-science.
Religion and its structures cerainly improved the lives of some people, and killed lots of others. Crusades anyone?
You said 'belief' has a positive effect on people. Does that include the gay men who have been and still are being demonised and persecuted, or the christians in Saudi, or the women in any muslim country? The safest places to be are in the secular democracries of western Europe where the the level of religion is the lowest.
That's the point I was making: we don't have to believe in a god so we don't have to kill in his name. There are people who are sometimes vicious but we no longer accept that they can act in that fashion, and we punish them when they do, unlike in religious wars.
Neither science nor religion kill anyone, people do. Whatever the reason they use to justify their behaviour is driven by their needs.
I'm not comparing scientific endeavour to the Abrahamic religions or any other religions, that would be meaningless. It is important to understand what my debate is, that scientific endeavour meets the same human needs as any other religion. The particular dogmas of other religions are not relevant.
Whatever part religion plays in war you cannot argue that, as I pointed out, knowledge and technology brought about by scientific endeavour has played no part because it has. That you choose to ignore this is part of the deception we play upon ourselves.
MM
(September 7, 2014 at 12:05 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Science is the best way we currently have to negate religious or opinion based thought processes.
Science works whether you believe in it or not.
If you choose to use your belief in scientific endeavour to 'negate religious or opinion based thought processes' is your decision, there is no scientific imperative that requires you to do this.
MM
(September 7, 2014 at 12:13 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: An excellent OP, but I think that excluding science as a religion is going to be pretty quick work.
If I drop a rock anywhere on the surface of this planet, it is going to fall at 9.8 m/s/s.
If I drop a rock anywhere on the surface of this planet, it is going to fall at 9.8 m/s/s, not matter how hard I pray that it does otherwise.
Boru
If we accept science is a religion that does not change anything about how we go about gathering empirical evidence, it does not make it less accurate in predicting repeatable events. I don't see your point?
MM
(September 7, 2014 at 12:21 pm)Chuck Wrote: To believe what is verifiably true to be verifiably true, is not religion.
Nor is the belief that proceeding from an accumulation of verifiable truths gives higher likelihood of generating sound solutions to problems than proceeding from a central unsupported assertion backed by no demonstrably effective means of truth finding.
So no, science is not religion and the opposite of religion.
Sure, I'm not suggesting scientific endeavour is any less accurate for being a religion.
MM
(September 7, 2014 at 12:42 pm)Gawdzilla Wrote: "Dear God of Science, please grant me the power to win consistently at the Lottery!"
:waits:
Nope, no god there either.
Not all religions need a god, Buddhism doesn't have one.
It would be really helpful if people put aside their misgivings about other religions (particularly Abrahamic ones) it's totally off the point and a waste of time.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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