Tav Wrote:I don't think anyone said that a person is defined by their looks. The only thing that was spoken of was how a person's looks can change his/her circumstances in society.

If nobody has said this, then I will. Everything is defined by the individual as they perceive 'a thing'. People are not exempt from this.

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fr0d0 Wrote:I'd guess very common. I would presume a person falls into the mindset due to frustration and or perversion possibly due to lack of meaningful stimulation. Not planned as in a meticulously made plan but driven into putting themselves in the situation. Then any potential victim happenning into the purpetrators path becomes a target.

If it was so common... then all the more reason for compulsory combat training for women

I frankly think it is as spontaneously decided upon as most thefts or decisions to buy those lovely shades for only 5.95$ when one goes grocery shopping In fact... I believe that most things we do are, rape not excluded. Why does it seem that rapists are treated as something vile or inhuman by some of my fellow forum goers? :S Am I misinterpreting them?

Saerules Wrote:You don't commit rape because you a: do not want to and/or b: are resilient enough that you would not, and/or c: for a reason I do not think of at this time.

fr0d0 Wrote:Personally I can appreciate beauty and sexuality without feeling any desire to go abuse a person. I couldn't think of a more contradictory response. To have such a perverse mindset is some serious sickness. Blokes that go to strip clubs etc objectifying women are fostering this sickness. It's all about skewing your nature so much you act on it un-naturally.

I wouldn't have anything to do with the sex industry. I think the reasoning for it being healthy are perverse and should be recognised as such. Healthy sex is found in a functioning inclusive community.

You fall under the A category: DO NOT WANT! I don't think that rapists necessarily have some serious sickness or a perverse mindset Blokes that go to strip clubs are what gives those women jobs... it's all about having people willing to do what we want in return for things they want. Strip clubs are just another thing... nothing either unnatural or skewed... simply something you do not

How is it perverse? Is it so different than using my own imagination for the same thing (albeit much weaker)... and actually watching things I find sexually appealing without needing to work for it so much? (and of course, the audio and video help the imagination when a girl turns something she wants upon herself... which is quite a bit nicer than forgetting what one was imagining from the pleasure of feeling it, and having to recreate the scenario from uncertainty at a loss of pleasure )

(June 13, 2010 at 4:18 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote: No matter how much visual stimulus is needed along with the stimulus of the violence, not every man is turned on by provocative clothing.

No. But a lot of men are. And I don't see why this doesn't include rapists?

Showing an attractive body off more with more revealing clothing is attractive to a lot of men, both good and bad men, both rapists and non-rapists I would think.

Unless you have evidence that rapists are not attracted to revealing clothing as much as a lot of men?

Quote:I've never heard of rapists having different fashion tastes than normal men.

Me either. Exactly.

Quote: Many men find sleazy clothing to be distasteful and cheap.

Yes, and many don't. Or many say they find them distasteful but they are actually still attracted I would think.

There are some heterosexual men that find women that look more masculine than average and that don't reveal their body at all attractive - I doubt that's the majority though.

Quote: Those ones often find a nicely dressed, more modest manner of clothing to be far more attractive.

Yes there are plenty who do. But I think there's a reason why so many women who are "objectified" are seen to be having very revealing clothing. Because there are an awful lot of men who are attracted to the female body and like it when more of it is on show.

Quote: So, the percentage of how many men find which different types of clothing arousing would also have to come into play if trying to analyse any possible correlation between clothing style and rape vulnerability.

Yes. So seen as we can't know that for sure I don't see how we can claim that rapists aren't attracted to what's on show either. Rape may indeed be about power, but I don't know of any evidence that rapists aren't attracted to the same sorts of visual stimuli.

EvF

(June 14, 2010 at 1:50 am)Saerules Wrote: I frankly think it is as spontaneously decided upon as most thefts or decisions to buy those lovely shades for only 5.95$ when one goes grocery shopping In fact... I believe that most things we do are, rape not excluded.

And you think raping someone is the same as impulse buying? When I impulse buy, I do it with the knowledge that there will be no repurcussions. Raping someone isn't without repurcussions. I've given you a workable scenario. You've said "is so".

(June 14, 2010 at 1:50 am)Saerules Wrote: Why does it seem that rapists are treated as something vile or inhuman by some of my fellow forum goers? :S Am I misinterpreting them?

Why did you say that?!? Sure, rape is something everyone is capable of. Rapists are not inhuman. I'm of the opinion that everyone has the capacity to be good, and that no one is unforgivable. Yeah you're misrepresenting me.

(June 14, 2010 at 1:50 am)Saerules Wrote: You fall under the A category: DO NOT WANT! I don't think that rapists necessarily have some serious sickness or a perverse mindset Blokes that go to strip clubs are what gives those women jobs... it's all about having people willing to do what we want in return for things they want. Strip clubs are just another thing... nothing either unnatural or skewed... simply something you do not

Performing and using those services is a sickness. Both parties suffer. Assasins kill for money. That must be ok too. I want it ok... my snake brain is motivated to act naturally. My developed brain manouvers me towards personal and societal gain.

(June 14, 2010 at 1:50 am)Saerules Wrote: How is it perverse? Is it so different than using my own imagination for the same thing (albeit much weaker)... and actually watching things I find sexually appealing without needing to work for it so much? (and of course, the audio and video help the imagination when a girl turns something she wants upon herself... which is quite a bit nicer than forgetting what one was imagining from the pleasure of feeling it, and having to recreate the scenario from uncertainty at a loss of pleasure )

Using your imagination can be perverse too. If you only steal a bag of sugar, you still stole.

(June 14, 2010 at 8:35 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Performing and using those services is a sickness.

Wut? I have a 'sickness' because I go to the nudy-bar? Because I rent women?

Proof please. This was no more logical than if I said being a christian is a 'sickness'.

(June 14, 2010 at 1:50 am)Saerules Wrote: I frankly think it is as spontaneously decided upon as most thefts or decisions to buy those lovely shades for only 5.95$ when one goes grocery shopping In fact... I believe that most things we do are, rape not excluded. Why does it seem that rapists are treated as something vile or inhuman by some of my fellow forum goers? :S Am I misinterpreting them?

It's only vile when a harmful desire is acted on. Everyone has some sort of harmful desires, such as many have wished they could murder someone who doesn't deserve it. Some people are unfortunate in that they get horny over things that would be very harmful if carried out, such as rape. In the case of rape, the harm of course, is that the other person hates that it's happening, it causes them long lasting emotional pain, and sometimes physical pain, as well as possible death from AIDS ('stay still a moment will you, I need both hands to properly put this condom on' - haha, yeah I know, I'm twisted to even think of that!). The AIDS factor makes it as bad as murder in my opinion.

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(June 14, 2010 at 6:05 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:

(June 13, 2010 at 4:18 pm)Scented Nectar Wrote: No matter how much visual stimulus is needed along with the stimulus of the violence, not every man is turned on by provocative clothing.

No. But a lot of men are. And I don't see why this doesn't include rapists?

Showing an attractive body off more with more revealing clothing is attractive to a lot of men, both good and bad men, both rapists and non-rapists I would think.

Unless you have evidence that rapists are not attracted to revealing clothing as much as a lot of men?

Probably, but since they are also probably attracted to other equally optional decisions (on the victim's part) besides clothing, why is only clothing the thing always picked on? There are other things like makeup, hair length, the weight one keeps oneself at, level of hygiene/grooming, etc. All these things factor highly into sexual arousal just as much as attractive clothing. Would most men watch porn where the woman has no makeup, or has man-style hair, or is fat, or looks dirty with unshaven legs/armpits? Seriously, why is clothing always getting picked on as a choice the victim should have known better about? It boils down to 'maybe you should have made yourself more ugly, and only in this way but not that and that'.

Quote:

Quote: Many men find sleazy clothing to be distasteful and cheap.

Yes, and many don't. Or many say they find them distasteful but they are actually still attracted I would think.

There are some heterosexual men that find women that look more masculine than average and that don't reveal their body at all attractive - I doubt that's the majority though.

I'm not talking about looking masculine or hiding ones body. I mean that many men prefer a tasteful, yet often thought of as attractive look, such as, a nice dress, panty hose, tasteful low heels, pretty long hair, a bit of makeup, etc. Nothing that could be thought of as looking slutty or provocative. Lots and lots of men's heads get turned by that sort of quite respectable look.

Quote:

Quote: Those ones often find a nicely dressed, more modest manner of clothing to be far more attractive.

Yes there are plenty who do. But I think there's a reason why so many women who are "objectified" are seen to be having very revealing clothing. Because there are an awful lot of men who are attracted to the female body and like it when more of it is on show.

I think both genders objectify both themselves and the other genders quite often and it isn't always some sort of problem. I'm starting to dislike that word.

Quote:

Quote: So, the percentage of how many men find which different types of clothing arousing would also have to come into play if trying to analyse any possible correlation between clothing style and rape vulnerability.

Yes. So seen as we can't know that for sure I don't see how we can claim that rapists aren't attracted to what's on show either. Rape may indeed be about power, but I don't know of any evidence that rapists aren't attracted to the same sorts of visual stimuli.

Probably, but I think that includes way more things than clothing. It's just that society is used to all the other ones like weight and grooming, etc. Now lots of women wear lipstick and no one shrieks in horror that they are trying to look like a slut and might be asking for trouble. We are currently in an age where freedom of body exposure/style is emerging in a big way. As soon as people are more used to things from 'sexy' clothing to full blown toplessness on hot days, the better. It won't be made an issue of blame anymore, since it will lose the stigma of immorally attractive and become acceptably attractive.

(June 14, 2010 at 9:26 am)Dotard Wrote:

(June 14, 2010 at 8:35 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Performing and using those services is a sickness.

Wut? I have a 'sickness' because I go to the nudy-bar? Because I rent women?

Proof please. This was no more logical than if I said being a christian is a 'sickness'.

How isn't it sickness? It's both abusive and self abusive. It's gratification without responsibility. It's anti relationships. Anti human. It's the exploitation of sexuality. Sex is great Dote. What this is is degrading sex into something cheap.

Last I checked purchasing sex isn't cheap.

(June 13, 2010 at 6:51 pm)tavarish Wrote: DMVs are usually privately operated, but they usually have a central hiring station and human resource department. What state? I'm only familiar with those on the East Coast.

Quote:Life isn't fair, but you do have cards at your disposal you're not using.

I'm Canadian. Each DMV is completely independent here, no central hiring or HR. Also, you seem to think I've done nothing about this, when I have. My boss has made an agreement with me that if someone gets too inappropriate, I can have a 'computer error' and she will handle it for me. It's a good arrangement, but one that I feel should not be necessary. This is a professional environment, if you want our services I feel you should behave in a respectful and professional manner.

Quote:I really don't understand the issue. You're angry because in a position where you have face to face contact with hundreds of people a week, some men take it upon themselves to try to ask you out? If it's such an issue, why work there? Obviously the reward outweighs the risk - or you're a glutton for punishment.

This is the first 'professional'-type job I have had- and if I play this right I might be able to get into government work.
Also my problem is not so much being asked out as much as the way it happens. When a balding 47-year old who drives a '93 Ford flashes an open wallet with about $150.00 in tens at you, asks "So, you like the ching-ching?" and lewdly licks his lips, you can't help but feel cheapened, outraged, and a bit like crying. Most encounters are not as bad as that. But the bottom line is that this is a DMV, not a dating service. Show some respect.

Quote:Conversely, if we look at an industry catered to women, for instance, romance novels, then the tables are turned as far as protagonists and role models go.

I wouldn't know. I don't bother with romances as I find them boring. In case it wasn't obvious, I prefer action or adventure. Maybe I am simply used to an industry that is not aimed at me.

Quote:You want intelligent female roles? Didn't they just make a second Sex and the City movie with 4 main female roles - all of them successful? How about any of the countless romantic comedies where the man is portrayed as a bumbling idiot and the woman as a professional? Did you suddenly forget about those?

As I just mentioned, I cannot stand romance or rom-coms. I do know a little about Sex and the City, and as far as I am aware it's about 4 women whose lives revolve around fashion, sex and romance. Nothing new or special about that.

Quote:Have you seen the movie Precious? The main character isn't exactly scarred/deformed, but she is certainly 180 degrees removed from a Britney Spears lookalike, and it won best picture at the Oscars this year, along with a host of other awards.

No, but when I get a chance I might check it out if it is good.

(June 13, 2010 at 5:18 pm)VoiceOfReason Wrote: My point was that saying a woman 'contributed' to her attack is ignorant. Most rapists know their victims and choose them for vulnerability and ease of scaring them to not tell, not sit on a street corner picking out which woman is most attractive to him.

Quote:1. Do you have any insight to what most rapists think?

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 38% of victims were raped by a friend or acquaintance, 28% by "an intimate" and 7% by another relative, and 26% were committed by a stranger to the victim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statis...Statistics

Being a topic of interest to me, I do my research. 74% of victims are not randomly selected on the street, but are attacked by someone they know.

(June 14, 2010 at 6:41 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: Last I checked purchasing sex isn't cheap.

What about renting? Or a time-share?

(June 14, 2010 at 5:08 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: How isn't it sickness?

Are you asking me to prove a negative? You maintain it is some kinda 'sickness', you prove it.

Quote:It's both abusive and self abusive.

Bullshit. We're both smiling and happy after it's over making the appointment for the next round. How the fuck is that abusive in any sense of the word?

Quote:It's gratification without responsibility.

So?

Quote: It's anti relationships. Anti human. It's the exploitation of sexuality. Sex is great Dote. What this is is degrading sex into something cheap.

1.) Bullshit. 2.) Bullshit. 3.) Yes it is, so? 4.) I agree. 5.) It is cheap. 20 to 60 bucks depending.

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(June 14, 2010 at 7:20 pm)VoiceOfReason Wrote: This is a professional environment, if you want our services I feel you should behave in a respectful and professional manner.

Here in America, I have the legal right to behave in any way I wish as long as I am not infriging upon anothers rights or breaking any laws. Sorry, you don't have a legal right not to be propositioned.

Quote:This is the first 'professional'-type job I have had- and if I play this right I might be able to get into government work.

Speaking as an ex-government worker the only way to 'play-it-right' is just to STFU and do your job and go home. If you whine and cry about old men in beat-up cars leering at you you'll most likely end up being seen as a complainer. If you have an interest in making it dealing with the public then you can't be such a fragile little flower.

Quote:Also my problem is not so much being asked out as much as the way it happens. When a balding 47-year old who drives a '93 Ford flashes an open wallet with about $150.00 in tens at you, asks "So, you like the ching-ching?" and lewdly licks his lips, you can't help but feel cheapened, outraged, and a bit like crying. Most encounters are not as bad as that. But the bottom line is that this is a DMV, not a dating service. Show some respect.

Waa waaa waaa..... (sorry if that bruised one of your petals)

Quote:No, but when I get a chance I might check it out if it is good.

How would you know if it was good unless you checked it out?

(June 13, 2010 at 5:18 pm)VoiceOfReason Wrote: According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 38% of victims were raped by a friend or acquaintance, 28% by "an intimate" and 7% by another relative, and 26% were committed by a stranger to the victim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statis...Statistics

Being a topic of interest to me, I do my research. 74% of victims are not randomly selected on the street, but are attacked by someone they know.

And this has to do with the topic...how? Do you know all the circumstances of each of those alledged crimes?

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(June 14, 2010 at 8:00 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(June 14, 2010 at 6:41 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: Last I checked purchasing sex isn't cheap.

What about renting? Or a time-share?

Renting is always less expensive than purchasing. Plus, with renting, returns and exchanges are hassle free!!