(September 24, 2014 at 5:08 pm)Blackrook Wrote: The human brain is a physical object under a delusion that it is something more than a physical object -- a mind, that exists outside the realm of the physical.

An atheist's task is to convince the human brain that it is nothing more than a biological machine, which operates with neurons and chemicals, rather than gears and levers.

Once that task is complete, we can abandon all belief in the soul, the spiritual world, and the afterlife.

Discuss.

Now, give me testable evidence of the soul, spiritual world, and afterlife.

Until you can, don't make silly claims.

(September 24, 2014 at 5:08 pm)Blackrook Wrote: The human brain is a physical object under a delusion that it is something more than a physical object -- a mind, that exists outside the realm of the physical.

An atheist's task is to convince the human brain that it is nothing more than a biological machine, which operates with neurons and chemicals, rather than gears and levers.

Once that task is complete, we can abandon all belief in the soul, the spiritual world, and the afterlife.

Discuss.

Why are you out from under your bridge?!?

How "real" are the computer programs on your computer?
Does Intel have to give the processors a "soul" before they work?

Our brains evolved from the most simple of reflexes to an contemplating human, with tons of intermediates.

Does an orangutan have 90 percent of a human soul? Do mentally handicapped people lack souls?

(September 24, 2014 at 8:37 pm)Blackrook Wrote: Agree or disagree: the mind is not "real."

It's as real as any other attribute: "Hot" isn't a real thing either, but you'll still get burned if you touch a fire.

Quote:A mind is the delusion the brain has that it exists somewhere that is not purely physical.

I don't know about you, but my mind doesn't come with this impression of occupying any form of space, it just is.

Quote:We are all sacks of meat, with no more inherent value than a side of bacon or a beef patty on a hamburger.

Our bodies are just meat, but our active brains produce our consciousness, which I would think is at least a little extra value.

Quote:All we have to do to change a mind is pump the brain up with the proper chemicals and neurological impulses.

Even personality can be changed with the right drugs and electrical inputs.

So "we" (our minds) don't exist.

That's funny, I didn't realize that "mutable" and "nonexistent" were synonyms.

Do you realize how stupid it is to say that? Your freaking hair can be changed with chemicals, does that mean your hair doesn't exist? Or does it just mean that it's changeable? You're bootstrapping on something to the definition of changeable that isn't present there: things can exist without being completely static. So what if you can change a mind with chemicals?

I know it's scary to you, that something about you might just be real without also being magic, but you need to do some thinking before you spout this shit off again.

Quote:Our emotions aren't real.

Everything we think, feel, love, hate isn't real.

Nothing is real, other than the material world.

And since our experience of the material world is processed through a "mind" that is a delusion, we can't even be sure of that.

I don't actually care if you want to be a solipsist, but don't try to drag the rest of us down with you.

(September 24, 2014 at 5:08 pm)Blackrook Wrote: The human brain is a physical object under a delusion that it is something more than a physical object -- a mind, that exists outside the realm of the physical.

An atheist's task is to convince the human brain that it is nothing more than a biological machine, which operates with neurons and chemicals, rather than gears and levers.

Once that task is complete, we can abandon all belief in the soul, the spiritual world, and the afterlife.

Discuss.

First of all as I'm sure several people have already pointed out, whether the brain is a biological machine is a factual question having nothing whatsoever to do with atheism. Nor strictly speaking is the question of whether humans have souls an atheist question. Why? Because the answer to neither question would either prove or disprove the existence of a god or gods.

Second, you assume that souls are something which must be disproved. To the contrary, there is no evidence that there is any such thing as a soul, if by soul you mean some aspect of the human mind that exists separately from the human brain.

The brain is a highly complex organ which functions but chemically and electronically. It's functions include supervision of involuntary functions such as heart beat, interpretation of senses, bodily movement, and a variety of different activities that we collectively call thinking. It's functioning can be altered in a number of ways including drugs, hormones, compromised liver and/or kidney function, concussions, strokes and a host of other physical causes. So far as I know, no one has ever produced credible evidence that the human mind can exist without a functioning brain.

And let me just say, calling the mind a "delusion" of the brain is just silliness. If the brain operated as just a regulatory organ, it wouldn't be said to "not be delusional". My pancreas isn't operating in a non-delusional manner. It doesn't even come into question. A delusion is an expression of the mind functioning in a disorderly fashion.

(September 24, 2014 at 8:37 pm)Blackrook Wrote: Agree or disagree: the mind is not "real."

A mind is the delusion the brain has that it exists somewhere that is not purely physical.

A mind is simply the thinking/remembering functions of the brain. It exists. But it is a set of processes not a thing. A computer program exists even though it does not run without an operating system within which to run. So too the mind exists even though it cannot exist without the brain in which to run.

Quote:We are all sacks of meat, with no more inherent value than a side of bacon or a beef patty on a hamburger.

I am purely physical, but that doesn't make me valueless to either myself or other human beings (or my dog for that matter). There is nothing inherently worthless about being a physical being. Damn good thing too as there isn't any evidence of non-physical beings.

Quote:All we have to do to change a mind is pump the brain up with the proper chemicals and neurological impulses.

Certainly you can change a mind that way. But minds are complex. Good luck predicting exactly how you will change it.

Quote:Even personality can be changed with the right drugs and electrical inputs.

Yep. Disease, stroke, and physical trauma can change a personality too.

Quote:So "we" (our minds) don't exist.

The fact that a thing can be altered doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Take the computer program analogy. The program exists even though it can be rewritten.

Quote:Our emotions aren't real.

Everything we think, feel, love, hate isn't real.

Once again all of those things are part of a process and the process most certainly exists.

Quote:Nothing is real, other than the material world.

Well, nothing is known but the material world. However, the mind is part of the material world. Get it?

Quote:And since our experience of the material world is processed through a "mind" that is a delusion, we can't even be sure of that.

The mind is real enough, it just happens to be an ongoing physical process. That my mind exists is the one thing I can be sure of. As Descartes pointed out if I am deluded, I must exist in order to be deluded.

(September 24, 2014 at 5:08 pm)Blackrook Wrote: The human brain is a physical object under a delusion that it is something more than a physical object -- a mind, that exists outside the realm of the physical.

An atheist's task is to convince the human brain that it is nothing more than a biological machine, which operates with neurons and chemicals, rather than gears and levers.

Once that task is complete, we can abandon all belief in the soul, the spiritual world, and the afterlife.

Discuss.

You are mostly correct.
Though that is a job for physical monist - not an atheist.

(September 24, 2014 at 5:08 pm)Blackrook Wrote: The human brain is a physical object under a delusion that it is something more than a physical object -- a mind, that exists outside the realm of the physical.

An atheist's task is to convince the human brain that it is nothing more than a biological machine, which operates with neurons and chemicals, rather than gears and levers.

Once that task is complete, we can abandon all belief in the soul, the spiritual world, and the afterlife.

Discuss.

If I do that I will also have to stop my beliefs about my penis being this super hyper mega duper source of energy…or that Keira knightley is a normal woman instead of a goddess…..I dunno.

I don't feel comfortable with this sorry.

(September 24, 2014 at 8:37 pm)Blackrook Wrote: Agree or disagree: the mind is not "real."

Disagree.

(September 24, 2014 at 8:37 pm)Blackrook Wrote: A mind is the delusion the brain has that it exists somewhere that is not purely physical.

No, soul is the delusion the mind has that it exists somewhere that is purely non-physical. Mind is a physical process.

(September 24, 2014 at 8:37 pm)Blackrook Wrote: We are all sacks of meat, with no more inherent value than a side of bacon or a beef patty on a hamburger.

Correct.

(September 24, 2014 at 8:37 pm)Blackrook Wrote: All we have to do to change a mind is pump the brain up with the proper chemicals and neurological impulses.

Even personality can be changed with the right drugs and electrical inputs.

Correct - though identifying those drugs and chemicals is a whole other matter.

(September 24, 2014 at 8:37 pm)Blackrook Wrote: So "we" (our minds) don't exist.

Our emotions aren't real.

Everything we think, feel, love, hate isn't real.

Wrong.

(September 24, 2014 at 8:37 pm)Blackrook Wrote: Nothing is real, other than the material world.

Any evidence that mind is not a part of material world?

(September 24, 2014 at 8:37 pm)Blackrook Wrote: And since our experience of the material world is processed through a "mind" that is a delusion, we can't even be sure of that.

Ahh.. Now we get to the point. Construction of a sloppy materialist position only to refute it.

1. Claim that atheists say only matter is real.
2. Claim that atheists say that therefore things like ideas, beliefs and mind are not real.
3. Claim that all experience (including experiencing evidence) is based on something not real and therefore is not reliable.
4. Claim that atheism is the result of these positions.
5. Therefore, atheism is wrong - Ta-da.


Where is Chad? He takes the same position but he puts is so much more elegantly.