(October 4, 2014 at 7:38 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't think you can believe something is morally wrong without believing it's objectively wrong to do so. You can't also give value to life without believing objectively there is value to life.

I'm willing to give up believing any action is morally wrong and rely instead on an agreed upon system of justice to enforce actions we condemn even in the absence of an action being objectively wrong. I'll settle for it being collectively unacceptable.

On the (very) long view, no one life amounts to all that much. But our own life literally means the world to us, and a natural concern for reciprocity is usually enough reason for most people to grant that all lives are sacrosanct. It doesn't really matter if they have some divine value tag on them. What matters is the way we are willing to barter with them, understanding as we do the value of one life .. our own.

(October 4, 2014 at 6:18 pm)Exian Wrote:

(October 4, 2014 at 5:46 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: My feeling is that theism is the acknowledgement of purpose. In that respect I can view nihilism as it's polar opposite.

If your purpose for this life is to get to heaven, then what will be your purpose in heaven? To persist? You can persist in hell. What purpose does persisting have?

That has nothing to do with my purpose in this life.

My purpose in this life is to get the most out of it that I possibly can. Heaven on earth, as stated in the lords prayer.

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(October 4, 2014 at 6:22 pm)Jenny A Wrote: The message in the Bible I see, is: if you believe and/or live right you'll get eternal life.

Hi Jenny

Why do I feel like Forrest Gump?

That's not my belief, and your jetteson of it seems reasonable.

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(October 4, 2014 at 6:24 pm)Jenny A Wrote: Yes but what is the purpose? What is god's answer"

The purpose is life

Frodo,

Let's say your god does exist and he did create everything, but lets change it so there is no promise of an afterlife. That is, there is no heaven and there is no hell, and anything to do with getting there is out. Once you die, that's it. Everything else in your religion is still in place.

How would this change your perspective on life, in regards to purpose?

ETA: I'm only asking this to clear up some confusion on my end. I have no "gotcha" motives.

(October 4, 2014 at 4:28 pm)Gawdzilla Wrote: Hi, Thump!

As for nihilism, why would atheism lead to that? Atheism is just the lack of belief in any god or gods.

Hiya, Gawd, long time no see, bud. How's things? Still posting much at Rationalia?

How do these two sentiments not contradict?

(October 4, 2014 at 7:38 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think it's possible to give value to yourself without their being value

Quote: but it's illogical to give yourself value while not believing there is objective value. Why you chose to live and what you want to do in your life can be chosen by us freely sure...but I don't think you can believe something is morally wrong without believing it's objectively wrong to do so. You can't also give value to life without believing objectively there is value to life.

Why must objective morality or value depend on the imposition of an outside being rather than one's self that exists, relatively briefly, in an objective material world?

(October 4, 2014 at 9:37 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: How do these two sentiments not contradict?

(October 4, 2014 at 7:38 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think it's possible to give value to yourself without their being value

Quote: but it's illogical to give yourself value while not believing there is objective value. Why you chose to live and what you want to do in your life can be chosen by us freely sure...but I don't think you can believe something is morally wrong without believing it's objectively wrong to do so. You can't also give value to life without believing objectively there is value to life.

Why must objective morality or value depend on the imposition of an outside being rather than one's self that exists, relatively briefly, in an objective material world?

I didn't mean to say it does. Just was saying valuing oneself without believing there is objective value strikes me as illogical. Objective value can come from within oneself, sure, why not?

Dear Forest Gump,

If the purpose of life is life, would that meaning change depending on whether there is a god? How about if the purpose is to live a good life or a moral one? Because if atheists and theists reach the same conclusion, it would seem god is not necessary to the answer.

(October 4, 2014 at 5:46 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: My feeling is that theism is the acknowledgement of purpose. In that respect I can view nihilism as it's polar opposite.

What of atheists who have a purpose in life?

Nihilism seems to be the polar opposite of almost every other stance. Including most cases of atheism.

(October 4, 2014 at 6:23 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: what would be the "objective purpose" of life for a theist? sing kumbaya for all eternity?

There can be none; that purpose is defined by a deity, and is inherently subjective, just as any morality derived from the same source must be.