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Sound and Nihilism
#1
Sound and Nihilism
I was thinking about how as Atheists, we do not like things we can't prove or know exist.  And then I compared that to our philosophical habits where we imagine all sorts of convenient bullshit.  It dawned on me, that there is no need for it.  We are physical beings analyzing a physical world.  Everything that exists, exists within it.  

Which brings us to sound.  If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound?  The answer is no.  It creates vibrations.  What makes sound is our eardrums converting the vibrations into whatever we hear in our head.  I'm not sure of the physiological details, and I don't think they are important.  The key being vibrations exist, and our noggins convert those vibrations into the sound we hear.

This relates to the 'long term nihilists' thread.

We talk meaning like it is an external immeasurable thing.  But what is meaning tangibly?  It is our brains assigning values to our perception of the world.  It is a real thing happening in our noggins, just like sound.  I'm sure with enough scientific understanding, we could literally pinpoint the little brainy things firing back and forth assigning meaning.  

The point being, that 'meaning' is not some intangible concept, it is a physical thing that exists.  It is a fact.  Now, we can bicker semantics over the definition of meaning, but in the end, we can just look at the brain, and see if it is in there for whatever definition we pick.  If it is, it's real.  If it isn't, it's not.

And when we are all gone,  does meaning still exist?  No.  Like soundwaves, objects and events will continue to bounce around the universe.  But without the brain, there is nothing to convert them into sound/meaning.

But nobody would say that because those sound waves aren't being converted into sound when life ceases to exist, that I'm not 'hearing' the typing on my keyboard right now.  That sound I'm hearing, the conversion of the waves into sound in my brain is real.  Just like the brain takes a string of sounds that I find pleasing, and assigns meaning to it.
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#2
RE: Sound and Nihilism
I agree your idea of meaning won't exist in terms of your brain when you're dead. But it's effects on your actions will affect others. This may alter their idea of meaning, and so on. So you could look at it that the consequences of your meaning got absorbed, in an abstract sense.

And people will remember you, and your meanings, and in that way a version of them lives on.

Unless you lived in total isolation of course. Even then, people may find evidence of how you lived later and this may affect their idea of meaning.

It's a good comparison, with sound waves and "sound".
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#3
RE: Sound and Nihilism
(April 30, 2015 at 11:01 am)wallym Wrote: We talk meaning like it is an external immeasurable thing.  But what is meaning tangibly?  It is our brains assigning values to our perception of the world.  It is a real thing happening in our noggins, just like sound.  I'm sure with enough scientific understanding, we could literally pinpoint the little brainy things firing back and forth assigning meaning.  

The point being, that 'meaning' is not some intangible concept, it is a physical thing that exists.  It is a fact.  Now, we can bicker semantics over the definition of meaning, but in the end, we can just look at the brain, and see if it is in there for whatever definition we pick.  If it is, it's real.  If it isn't, it's not.

This may be true, but like consciousness, until we have a model of how the brain creates meaning, it's pointless to say you're sure that it's in there. Maybe once we map out all the functional parts of the brain and we find it's not in there. What is your response then? You have faith that the physicalist model of mind explains it, but without an actual model of how it explains it, your assurances aren't worth much.
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#4
RE: Sound and Nihilism
(April 30, 2015 at 11:31 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(April 30, 2015 at 11:01 am)wallym Wrote: We talk meaning like it is an external immeasurable thing.  But what is meaning tangibly?  It is our brains assigning values to our perception of the world.  It is a real thing happening in our noggins, just like sound.  I'm sure with enough scientific understanding, we could literally pinpoint the little brainy things firing back and forth assigning meaning.  

The point being, that 'meaning' is not some intangible concept, it is a physical thing that exists.  It is a fact.  Now, we can bicker semantics over the definition of meaning, but in the end, we can just look at the brain, and see if it is in there for whatever definition we pick.  If it is, it's real.  If it isn't, it's not.

This may be true, but like consciousness, until we have a model of how the brain creates meaning, it's pointless to say you're sure that it's in there.  Maybe once we map out all the functional parts of the brain and we find it's not in there.  What is your response then?  You have faith that the physicalist model of mind explains it, but without an actual model of how it explains it, your assurances aren't worth much.

Because it makes so much more sense to make up some woo of the gap.  Dodgy
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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#5
RE: Sound and Nihilism
(April 30, 2015 at 11:21 am)robvalue Wrote: Your idea of meaning won't exist in terms of your brain when you're dead, but it's effects on your actions will affect others. This may alter their idea of meaning, and so on.

Unless you lived in total isolation of course.


I'm not following your point.  You're trying to say my meaning lives on?  That's clearly false.  As my meaning only exists in my brain.  It is not floating about in reality.  In my brain it is real and measurable.  There is nothing real and measurable about it floating around.  What you may be talking about, is another brain's perception of my meaning, and that perception playing a part in the equation of forming it's own meaning.  But the perception of my meaning is not my meaning.

If I have a red shirt, and you see my red shirt, and make a similar red shirt of your own, they aren't the same shirt. If we lit my shirt on fire, we wouldn't say my shirt still exists because you have a similar shirt.
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#6
RE: Sound and Nihilism
I'm pickin' up what you're layin' down, OP. If one is a materialist - as I am, and as many others on this board are, I believe - or otherwise presupposes materialism, then, in the absence of, as Jormungandr suggests, evidence that we look at the brain and something we know to exist is "not in there," it follows that what you call "meaning" is a physical process. I strongly believe this is the case. I'm not sure I'd call what you're describing "meaning," though; I'd call it "experience," or maybe "sentience" (and, at a higher lever, "sapience"). I would be comfortable describing meaning as a subset of sapience.

But I think the sort of points you're making are valid, and worth discussing. There's, at least from the meaning/sapience perspective, a qualitative difference between a vibration that propagates through the air, weakening in all directions until it is overtaken by background noise, and a vibration that runs into a membrane that converts it into electrical signals that sends more electrical signals shooting in all directions through a two-pound lump of fat and water. If we want to call this difference something like meaning or sapience, well, I think we're doing a pretty reasonable job of defining those words.

Regarding the loss of meaning upon death, well... I think then we're getting into a 3-dimension/4-dimension sort of thing. If meaning is defined as we think it is - that is, a particular physically-explainable quality of our brains - then at a given point in time it either exists or it doesn't exist. I think it's reasonable to say that, when there's literally nothing alive in the universe, then nothing will have "meaning", regardless of how we define that word. But even the death of the universe can't ever rob us of the precious seconds of meaning that exist, at this point in time, thanks to the lump of fat and water within our craniums.
How will we know, when the morning comes, we are still human? - 2D

Don't worry, my friend.  If this be the end, then so shall it be.
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#7
RE: Sound and Nihilism
(April 30, 2015 at 11:31 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(April 30, 2015 at 11:01 am)wallym Wrote: We talk meaning like it is an external immeasurable thing.  But what is meaning tangibly?  It is our brains assigning values to our perception of the world.  It is a real thing happening in our noggins, just like sound.  I'm sure with enough scientific understanding, we could literally pinpoint the little brainy things firing back and forth assigning meaning.  

The point being, that 'meaning' is not some intangible concept, it is a physical thing that exists.  It is a fact.  Now, we can bicker semantics over the definition of meaning, but in the end, we can just look at the brain, and see if it is in there for whatever definition we pick.  If it is, it's real.  If it isn't, it's not.

This may be true, but like consciousness, until we have a model of how the brain creates meaning, it's pointless to say you're sure that it's in there.  Maybe once we map out all the functional parts of the brain and we find it's not in there.  What is your response then?  You have faith that the physicalist model of mind explains it, but without an actual model of how it explains it, your assurances aren't worth much.

Why would you believe it's not there?  What possible rationale could you have to expect that this time, believing the laws of the universe, is an issue of 'faith.'  

That's like saying "We can't be sure gravity is still going to be a thing tomorrow until tomorrow gets here and we test it out."  
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#8
RE: Sound and Nihilism
No, I said in my first sentence your meaning won't actually exist any more. What I was getting at is that it will affect other meanings which will live on. So its effects are still felt even though it is gone. It lives on metaphorically. If you come at it from purely a nihilistic point of view, then that is of no importance I suppose.
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#9
RE: Sound and Nihilism
(April 30, 2015 at 11:54 am)wallym Wrote:
(April 30, 2015 at 11:31 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: This may be true, but like consciousness, until we have a model of how the brain creates meaning, it's pointless to say you're sure that it's in there.  Maybe once we map out all the functional parts of the brain and we find it's not in there.  What is your response then?  You have faith that the physicalist model of mind explains it, but without an actual model of how it explains it, your assurances aren't worth much.

Why would you believe it's not there?  What possible rationale could you have to expect that this time, believing the laws of the universe, is an issue of 'faith.'  

That's like saying "We can't be sure gravity is still going to be a thing tomorrow until tomorrow gets here and we test it out."  

But the problem of induction isn't trivial. It is true that we don't have a proof that the sun will rise tomorrow or gravity will still exert its power.
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#10
RE: Sound and Nihilism
(April 30, 2015 at 11:01 am)wallym Wrote: We are physical beings analyzing a physical world. Everything that exists, exists within it.
That seems rather parochial. Who’s to say that there are no other ways of existing and ways in which we unknowingly participate in them? People may be unaware of them now, but it seems premature to rule out the possibility.

(April 30, 2015 at 11:01 am)wallym Wrote: We talk [of] meaning like it is an external [ ]measurable thing. But what is meaning tangibly?
Must everything real be tangible? Is every real thing measurable?

(April 30, 2015 at 11:01 am)wallym Wrote: It is our brains assigning values to our perception of the world. [/i]If you do not distinguish between the apparent difference between the physical processes of the brain and the qualitative experiences of the mind, you run the risk of begging the question. It assumes a mind-brain identity theory and closes off other options.

[quote='wallym' pid='932405' dateline='1430406072']…that 'meaning' is not some intangible concept, it is a physical thing that exists. It is a fact.
A fact is propositional statement the contents of which are true. Do facts exist? If facts exist then you tacitly accept a category for intangible beings.

(April 30, 2015 at 11:01 am)wallym Wrote: And when we are all gone, does meaning still exist? No.
I don’t know. Does it?

(April 30, 2015 at 11:01 am)wallym Wrote: …the conversion of the waves into sound in my brain is real.
Is the reality of a process, like converting vibrations into sound, somehow different from the reality of a sensible body, like an apple? Are you suggesting one category of being for processes and a different one for sensible bodies?
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