God gave us free will, we made the mistakes, if God made us love and obey him we would be mindless robots, instead he let us choose whether or not to obey him.

mindless robots seems to be exactly what he wants, so I don't know why he'd bother with free will. That's what I've been saying. What's the point of allowing someone to choose if you make the "correct" choice so narrow?

You know I have never been inside God's mind neither have you, it is really hard to understand why someone did something if they don't tell you

(October 7, 2014 at 3:32 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: God gave us free will, we made the mistakes, if God made us love and obey him we would be mindless robots, instead he let us choose whether or not to obey him.

The system of reward and punishment he implemented makes it seem as if he wants us to be willing robots. It's pretty creepy to think that he created sentient beings with a specific plan to crush their collective will so utterly. Did he also create flies so that he could pull their wings off?

(October 7, 2014 at 10:46 am)orangebox21 Wrote: We want to create a God in our image.

Right. And the results include religions such as Christianity and people who make hilarious statements like this:

(October 7, 2014 at 2:03 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: The Christian God is only ever described in the bible as acting justly.

(October 7, 2014 at 3:32 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: God gave us free will, we made the mistakes, if God made us love and obey him we would be mindless robots, instead he let us choose whether or not to obey him.

Did this god know that we were going to make mistakes?

(October 7, 2014 at 3:43 pm)C4RM5 Wrote: You I have never been inside God's mind neither have you, it is really hard to understand why someone did something if they don't tell you

For someone protesting at not being privy to his god's thoughts, you do seem to have a tendency to know what it's thinking and it's opinions about things.

(October 2, 2014 at 6:07 pm)MistressD Wrote: I guess perhaps I address this question to theists...if God is so perfect, and created Adam and eve as perfect in his image, then why did they disobey him?

what in the bible makes you think Adam and Eve were perfect copies of God?
Adam was formed from the dust from the Ground in the image of God, and then God breathed life into him making him a living soul. Therefore it can be said God created Adam from dust. From Adam God took a couple of ribs, and did not create, but produced eve. Nowhere in the bible does it say Adam and Eve were photo copies of God.

Quote:If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin?

If you were to make a cake, and intended it to be eaten, do you bake a cake pre-sliced? Or do you make a cake without a slice and/or blemish and then allow it to be cut it into slices?

Quote:I'm not talking about the stupid tree of knowledge, I'm asking how it was they were so susceptible to satan?

because that was the plan???

Quote: Which leads me to another question, God created satan himself, from what I understand he was a perfect angel, then how is it he also came to sin?

I think you are having trouble with the word perfect. You seem to be using it to describe something with out flaw alongside the ability to be beyond influence or damage for eternity.

Know two things. One in Genesis God does not deem man a perfect creation He simply labels what he has created as good or 'very good.'

Two the hebrew word (first used in chapter 6 to describe Noah's character) simply means complete, not lacking, whole. It does not imply eternal perfection. You are confusing the mythos of pop christianity with what the bible actually says.

Quote: This seems to me God is in fact fallible, or else deliberately set us up to fail, seeing as how sin should not exist unless he made it so.

Yes we are indeed meant to fail, and seek redemption if we want it. This seperates the sheep from the goats, the wheat from the weeds the wheat from the chaff.
Those who what to be with God from those who do not.[/quote]

Quote:As a burgeoning atheist, this is one of the biggest issues I have with theism. I wish to hear as many points of view as possible on this one, not just Christians please.

Well you now have one more.

I know this is a bit random, but if Adam and Eve ate the fruit, and discovered that being naked was wrong, why were they naked in the first place? Nevermind exactly why they thought it was wrong, since people have to be taught that running around naked is wrong.

(October 7, 2014 at 12:00 pm)robvalue Wrote: A discussion of free will:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtSM2oVy_E

Is it true that those who reject Christ will be in hell? Yes. Does the video tell the whole story? No.

The video misrepresents Christ and the individual opening the door. The video makes no distinction of the moral condition of the individual opening the door. There is no discussion as to whether or not the individual is guilty of breaking the law or not. It implies that the individual is at least morally neutral and at most innocent. Secondly, it shows Christ as giving an ultimatum. Choose me or go to hell, the choice is up to you. Truthfully His statement is: "You are on your way to hell, but there is a way out. I am the way and the truth and the life, whoever believes in me will not perish but have eternal life."

A better analogy would be as follows. A policeman comes to your door. He shows you video footage of you speeding. You know you were speeding and he knows you were speeding. You have broken the law. The policeman says to you, "I can forgive you your legal debt if you ask me to." How will you respond?

Will you deny that you did anything wrong? Will you argue that the punishment for speeding is unjust and therefore the policeman is being immoral? Will you ask for forgiveness?

(October 7, 2014 at 11:40 am)robvalue Wrote: He could have given only the ability, motivation and thoughts to do good things, and to always be happy doing them.

Why do you think this statement is true?

(October 7, 2014 at 11:10 am)Chad32 Wrote: Why would we not ask such things? We are free willed and curious people.

Please define what you mean by free will.

(October 7, 2014 at 11:10 am)Chad32 Wrote: Why should we just take someone's word for it that they are all knowing and powerful?

If a being exists that is all knowing and powerful then the only way to know this being is all knowing and powerful would be to take His word for it.

It's not a position that the empiricist, rationalist, or skeptic is comfortable taking, having to rely on someone or something else. It is however a more reasonable position. Given that man does not know everything, we would have no way to test something that does know everything.

(October 7, 2014 at 11:10 am)Chad32 Wrote: Kings will say they have a divine right to rule, but they can be toppled like any other if the people are abused enough. That's how Human society works. We need a system that benefits us, and the strong minority may like to push the weak majority down to maintain power, but eventually the weak majority will rise up and overthrow an oppressive ruler. Why? Because they ask questions about their current state of affairs. Why would we not do the same with the idea of a god? Especially since the best idea we have of god comes from people who claim to be inspired by him.

Should a child ever question his parents? Yes. Should a creation ever question his creator, if that was possible? Yes. I know those verses are meant to be rhetorical, and the implied answer is no, but I say the obvious answer should be yes.

Society responding to a king, the majority responding to the minority, children questioning parents, are all examples of human to human relationships. It is non-sequitur to show that what is true of human to human relationships would necessarily be true of human to God relationships.

(October 7, 2014 at 11:10 am)Chad32 Wrote: I know those verses are meant to be rhetorical, and the implied answer is no, but I say the obvious answer should be yes. We should always question, because that's how we gain knowledge and progress as a species.

There is a specific question being addressed in this passage. The verse is not to be expanded in such a way as to support anti-intellectualism. Ironically, the question being asked in the text is answered in the text.

(October 7, 2014 at 10:05 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I know this is a bit random, but if Adam and Eve ate the fruit, and discovered that being naked was wrong, why were they naked in the first place? Nevermind exactly why they thought it was wrong, since people have to be taught that running around naked is wrong.

You can do some research into what theologians say about this. Here is the layman's explanation.

The shame they felt [from being naked] was due to their loss of right standing [righteousness] with God (spiritual death). This is reinforced in that they 'hid' from God. The sacrificial system [the foreshadowing of Christ] was implemented when God slaughtered an animal [a sacrifice for sin] and covered their nakedness [shame from sin]. The covering of their nakedness is an alluding to Christ when His righteousness, through His sacrifice, is imputed to us through faith and covers over us.

(October 7, 2014 at 1:19 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(October 7, 2014 at 10:46 am)orangebox21 Wrote: Often we want God to be how we want Him to be, act how we want Him to act, so as to serve our wills. We want to create a God in our image. This is the perspective of humanism interpreting scripture, namely "It should be all about ME, all for MY benefit." Well, who are you oh man that you should.....

It's not about what we want; it's about what words mean. Perfect has a meaning: flawless.

However, your god is very clearly flawed, and his own behavior in Genesis is a tacit admission of it. I mean, he made humans, and then realized that the vast majority of them were so flawed as to be beyond even his powers to redeem, so he killed all but seven of them.

That is your god saying, "Gee, I fucked up. I'd better start over."

How do you know that He made humans, and then "realized that the vast majority of them were so flawed as to be beyond even his powers to redeem, so He killed all but seven of them?" How do you know it wasn't that God created humans, and then "choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? [And] What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

You must misrepresent the Biblical God (create a god in an image you want for your purpose [to argue against]), in order to bring an accusation against Him.

(October 7, 2014 at 4:23 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote:

(October 7, 2014 at 10:46 am)orangebox21 Wrote: We want to create a God in our image.

Right. And the results include religions such as Christianity and people who make hilarious statements like this:

(October 7, 2014 at 2:03 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: The Christian God is only ever described in the bible as acting justly.

What is justice? Is justice punishment of wrongdoing?

The problem of hell is not that it's a punishment. It's that it's a never ending torturous punishment, dealt out for the crime of not worshiping someone. Yahweh hates not being worshiped, created a place of fire that disproportionately punishes people due to it being infinite punishment for infinite crimes, and claims that we need to be saved. Saved from what? Him apparently. He's the one who set everything up. You don't get to play the hero for saving someone from something you caused in the first place. If you set fire to a building, then save everyone inside, you don't get to say you're a hero for saving everyone.

Plus how do you address the problem of it being a fake choice? Slavery or burning for eternity? You get to choose, but neither choice is ideal. If the police officer in your analogy said that your punishment for speeding was burning at the stake, I'm sure you'd have a problem with that. No one is saying they aren't guilty of doing bad things. we're saying the punishment is too severe, and that the main thing we're being punished for is not obeying something we don't even know exists.

What do I mean by free will? The ability to think differently from another person.

You can't know anything just by being told something is true. We can test the claims that this thing makes. Such as the claim that anything you ask for in his name will be given to you. That doesn't happen, even with fervent believers of Jesus.

Well Human to Human relationships is all we have to go on. There's no standard of comparison here. If we're ever to know anything about Human to god relationships, we have to find a god. Unfortunately none has yet to be produced.

I'm not sure why Yahweh would bother slaughtering an animal just to clothe them. Then again, it's probably not really important. Yahweh does what he wants, whether it makes any sense or not.