(October 10, 2014 at 1:38 am)Exian Wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if the Neanderthals were capable of art in some form, but the fact that their tool development shows only small advancement over long stretches of time seems to oppose that.

Or, perhaps, it could mean that they weren't terribly concerned about tools.

Kinda like most artists, come to think of it.

(October 10, 2014 at 1:38 am)Exian Wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if the Neanderthals were capable of art in some form, but the fact that their tool development shows only small advancement over long stretches of time seems to oppose that.

Estimate of Neanderthal populations puts their numbers much below those of hss. Adjusted for the many fewer Neanderthal brains that were available to think about innovations, it appears the rate of innovation per Neanderthal-years were not statistically meaningfully lower than the rate of innovation per man-years during Paleolithic.

Also, their body build might not have allowed for efficient use of sleeker throwing spears. Maybe they weren't lacking in innovation; maybe it's was physical restriction.

What I remember from Anthro101, and that was about three centuries ago, was that they were fairly robust in build. I'm not sure how that might affect throwing mechanics, but judging from modern athletes it doesn't seem to provide much impediment.

There are differences...




but really, how significant are they?

It maybe significant enough so that Neanderthal female to human male coupling can not produce fertile offspring. All neanderthal genetic contribution To HSS gene pool seems to have come from Neanderthal males. No Neanderthal female appears to have interbred with HSS and left a line of descendants that lasted to the present. That could either be because offspring of Neanderthal female to HSS male pairing has some genetic short comings, so while they are fertile, the line has some genetic disadvantage that caused them to die out, or such offsprings were simply infertile due to incompatibility between Neanderthal and HSS genome.

The second case is enough to definitively make Neanderthal a separate species by classical definition of species. The first case would still make a good argument that Neanderthal should be classified as a different species.

Off course it is possible social factors make Neanderthal female to HSS male pairing much more rare than the reverse, so rare that evidence has been diluted to invisibility. If that is the case, then it maybe that Neanderthals and HSS are the same species. But at the moment it's hard to tell.

(October 10, 2014 at 5:05 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(October 10, 2014 at 1:38 am)Exian Wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if the Neanderthals were capable of art in some form, but the fact that their tool development shows only small advancement over long stretches of time seems to oppose that.

Or, perhaps, it could mean that they weren't terribly concerned about tools.

Kinda like most artists, come to think of it.

You be surprised. Put a group of us together and we talk tools and technique. Art supply stores (artist tool shops) are like trips to the candy store.

Have you heard the idea that, based on the structure of the skull and how it sat on their body and comparing that to ours, there are certain vowel sounds that they couldn't form? Do you think we have enough information to make that inference? I was never totally sold on it. Maybe I haven't found a convincing enough read.

Quote:Off course it is possible social factors make Neanderthal female to HSS male pairing much more rare than the reverse

Well, you know women. Some of them go for that 'bad-boy, cave man' act.

(October 10, 2014 at 10:42 pm)Exian Wrote: Have you heard the idea that, based on the structure of the skull and how it sat on their body and comparing that to ours, there are certain vowel sounds that they couldn't form? Do you think we have enough information to make that inference? I was never totally sold on it. Maybe I haven't found a convincing enough read.

I think the latest analysis of Neanderthal hyoid bone suggests there is no substantive difference between Neanderthals and HSS in the physical ability to make language sounds.

However, it is believed HSS faculty for language is not all nurture. It also includes a major component of instinctive grammatical preprogramming. At this point it is not clear if Neanderthals have a comparable library of preprogrammed grammar to support a language as sophisticated as HSS are capable of. If Neanderthal did have an instinctive grammatical programming as sophisticated as our own, it is also not clear if the contents of HSS and Neanderthal programmings are necessarily compatible so that either HSS or Neanderthal could readily learn the other's language.

So Neanderthals can be taught to make any sound modern human can. But it is unclear if neanderthals can master HSS language or vice versa.

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(October 10, 2014 at 10:54 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Off course it is possible social factors make Neanderthal female to HSS male pairing much more rare than the reverse

Well, you know women. Some of them go for that 'bad-boy, cave man' act.

Perhaps HSS males simply couldn't get it up before Neanderthal women who could easily rip them limb from limb.

Neanderthals upper body strength were in a different league all together form HSS.