(October 2, 2014 at 6:07 pm)MistressD Wrote: I guess perhaps I address this question to theists...if God is so perfect, and created Adam and eve as perfect in his image, then why did they disobey him? If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin? I'm not talking about the stupid tree of knowledge, I'm asking how it was they were so susceptible to satan? Which leads me to another question, God created satan himself, from what I understand he was a perfect angel, then how is it he also came to sin? This seems to me God is in fact fallible, or else deliberately set us up to fail, seeing as how sin should not exist unless he made it so. As a burgeoning atheist, this is one of the biggest issues I have with theism. I wish to hear as many points of view as possible on this one, not just Christians please.

The Adam & Eve story is just a trope about betrayal. There are countless such stories in the Bible. In the case of Adam & Eve it's about some local rulers, most likely the king of Tyre, who collaborated with the Egyptians against the Assyrians. There was no celestial deity involved. It is just a story about political intrigue and betrayal.

When you think about it just about all of the Bible stories are almost identical to the Adam & Eve story.

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(October 7, 2014 at 10:46 am)orangebox21 Wrote:

(October 2, 2014 at 6:07 pm)MistressD Wrote: I guess perhaps I address this question to theists...if God is so perfect, and created Adam and eve as perfect in his image, then why did they disobey him? If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin? I'm not talking about the stupid tree of knowledge, I'm asking how it was they were so susceptible to satan? Which leads me to another question, God created satan himself, from what I understand he was a perfect angel, then how is it he also came to sin? This seems to me God is in fact fallible, or else deliberately set us up to fail, seeing as how sin should not exist unless he made it so. As a burgeoning atheist, this is one of the biggest issues I have with theism. I wish to hear as many points of view as possible on this one, not just Christians please.

The answer may offend you, but....

Isaiah 45:9 (9"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands '?) is quoted and expounded in Romans 9:16-24

16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Often we want God to be how we want Him to be, act how we want Him to act, so as to serve our wills. We want to create a God in our image. This is the perspective of humanism interpreting scripture, namely "It should be all about ME, all for MY benefit." Well, who are you oh man that you should.....

That sounds legit but remember the main point. When man ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil he then knew what is good and evil just like God knows the difference. So man is therefore able to judge God's actions as being either good or evil. Man has done that and found God wanting because God's actions are mostly evil. As it says in the New Testament, man will judge angels. It should have also said that man will judge God as well.

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(October 9, 2014 at 3:37 am)robvalue Wrote: If the christian (or muslim) god did exist (which they clearly don't) then

(a) It is a dick
(b) I wouldn't worship it

It's about as close to perfect as I am to slam dunking while sitting down.

And as I've made threads about before, even if you take "just looking at stuff" as evidence for god, all that gives you is some sort of god. There is no justification for then just inserted your own god into this, based on some old book written by ignorant war mongers.

There was a great thing I heard on an edition of The Atheist Experience, it went something like this: "The Bible is exactly what you would expect to see if a bunch of people 2000 years ago wrote a book about stuff they knew, and trying to write about a god." How can you possibly tell the difference between a book written by these idiots, and one which is somehow magically imbued with truth? Urgh, it boggles my brain how that book has brainwashed so many people. Or rather, how it has been used to brainwash people. Funny thing is, most christians haven't even read it properly. I wonder how many know what the real 10 commandments are? They are not the ones that are inserted into courthouses and other public places against the first amendment. The real ones, you know, the ones carried around in the ark. The ones that weren't smashed up. Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCJ8rb8Grw

That's an excellent video. Thanks for sharing.

(October 10, 2014 at 1:53 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The initial claim is that 'God is morally wrong because eternal punishment is wrong.' This assertion is different than 'God is morally wrong because how He is described in the bible does not match up with the claims made about him.'

The former is a subset of the latter; eternal punishment for finite crimes is morally wrong, and therefore the bible is in error when it describes god as morally good and perfect.

Your response, this "oh, we all think god should act like this or that, but he's god and we have no right to tell him how to act!" does not address the claim in any kind of rational manner, but instead seeks to redefine each of the concepts we find god doesn't possess so that he does, by claiming that they mean something other than what they do, or that there's some extra special higher meaning of them that god knows about, and although you can't explain what that is, it totally exists, you guys.

But you can justify absolutely anything if you're willing to simply change the meanings of words when they are applied to your god, while still somehow expecting us to think of the real meaning when we talk about him. It's not a germane position to take.

Quote:The initial claim made, is that God is immoral because eternal punishment is wrong. The atheist uses this assertion to conclude God's not fair, not moral, not worthy of praise, doesn't exist, etc. The direct implication of the original claim is that if God punished people in a way fitting to the critics liking [acted the way I want Him too], then He would be fair, moral, worthy of praise, existent, etc.

And this is the other prong of this dishonest argument; an attempt to devalue your opponent's claim into one of personal preference, rather than the definitional argument that it actually is. It's not about what the individual speaker wants to be true, and I think you know that: it's about pointing out that god is not acting in line with our common understanding of moral goodness, for several reasons.

To begin with, punishment serves two purposes; atonement and rehabilitation. By definition, infinite punishment for finite crime will become excessive at some point, and rehabilitation is impossible if the punishment is all there will ever be from that point on. That makes it unjust, and hence immoral. Additionally, torture is the epitome of cruel and unusual punishment, and we generally call the infliction of punishment for crimes we cannot avoid committing "entrapment," and when the punishment is handed down by an authority without any accountability or requirement to be a representative of the people, that's called a dictatorship. All immoral.

So eternal punishment is excluded from any normal understanding of regular morality, let alone perfect morality. Therefore, any being performing eternal punishment cannot be morally perfect, and therefore the claims about god in the bible do not accurately reflect the character it portrays. How will you attempt to reconcile this? Well, I've no doubt you'll appeal to some special other morality that god has, some magic quality or reason that makes it okay that god possesses and we don't. Aside from being special pleading, this is the Argument from Vague Possible reasons I alluded to before, and it's, yes, redefining the term morality to mean something other than it means.

Don't think I haven't played this game before.

Quote:If you want to claim that God is wrong to punish people, then justify the claim. If you want to argue that God, as He is described in the Bible, does not match up with the claims made about him, then justify that claim. I'm content discussing either claim.

Look up, Skippy.

Quote:How do you know that I'm assuming the conclusion [God's nature] to prove the premise [God's actions]? How do you know that I don't recognize that people break the moral law, read in the Bible that God forgives [action] some [through sacrificial atonement] and doesn't forgive others and then conclude that God [His nature] is both merciful and just?

Because "merciful and just" and "advocator and performer of infinite punishment," are mutually exclusive terms. Hell, "merciful," and "just," are mutually exclusive terms, because mercy is a suspension of justice. Perfect justice and any mercy at all are necessarily in contradiction.

Quote:Are you honestly suggesting here that I have an argument with myself? I can think of possible alternatives, but no one has offered one.

One would think the obvious alternative is that one suffers punishment commensurate with the crime they have committed, after a fair trial, and that they are released once that is finished. Of course, that would require that god, being the putative victim in this case, recuse himself from passing judgment, but that's just one of the many problems with the system as it stands that makes god's judgment deeply unfair.

(October 2, 2014 at 6:07 pm)MistressD Wrote: I guess perhaps I address this question to theists...if God is so perfect, and created Adam and eve as perfect in his image, then why did they disobey him? If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin? I'm not talking about the stupid tree of knowledge, I'm asking how it was they were so susceptible to satan? Which leads me to another question, God created satan himself, from what I understand he was a perfect angel, then how is it he also came to sin? This seems to me God is in fact fallible, or else deliberately set us up to fail, seeing as how sin should not exist unless he made it so. As a burgeoning atheist, this is one of the biggest issues I have with theism. I wish to hear as many points of view as possible on this one, not just Christians please.

Hello mistress

It seems you're stuck on taking this story literally. Of course it's really the human condition set out.

You got it right. God made it this way.

In the language of the story: people are imperfect. Our reasoning abilities (tree of knowledge of good and evil) separate us from living life for the moment. Christianity sets out to reverse that fact. Get us back into the garden to enjoy "life in all its fullness".

You're welcome

(October 11, 2014 at 5:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Hello mistress

It seems you're stuck on taking this story literally. Of course it's really the human condition set out.

You got it right. God made it this way.

In the language of the story: people are imperfect. Our reasoning abilities (tree of knowledge of good and evil) separate us from living life for the moment. Christianity sets out to reverse that fact. Get us back into the garden to enjoy "life in all its fullness".

You're welcome

And here I thought you could never go home to the womb. Leave it to xtianity to find a way.

(October 11, 2014 at 5:30 am)fr0d0 Wrote: In the language of the story: people are imperfect. Our reasoning abilities (tree of knowledge of good and evil) separate us from living life for the moment. Christianity sets out to reverse that fact. Get us back into the garden to enjoy "life in all its fullness".

That is the most honest representation of Christianity I've ever see.

People have reasoning abilities that set them apart from the garden (read: primitive existence). Christianity wants to subvert that and take you back.

(October 11, 2014 at 6:11 am)whateverist Wrote: And here I thought you could never go home to the womb. Leave it to xtianity to find a way.

I've dedicated my entire life to the subject. Xtianity be hanged.

Well yes, I do manage to get Mr. Johnson pretty nearly back to the womb on a regular basis. But only xtians look to abdicate their critical thinking skills by returning to an infantile state.

Oh contraire. Christianity provides a way to achieve that which non reasoning animals do instinctively, but by using that reasoning power. But y'all were trolling again right.

I doubt that a non reasoning animal would be able to comprehend the idea of a creator god that can't be detected with the five senses.

(October 11, 2014 at 11:25 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Oh contraire. Christianity provides a way to achieve that which non reasoning animals do instinctively, but by using that reasoning power. But y'all were trolling again right.

OK, Christianity makes people as unthinking as cockroaches. I see.