In this mind -

If you leave your door open and a burglar comes along and steals all your stuff, the burglar is of course in the wrong for stealing, but it would also make you foolish for leaving your door open in the first place. Even if no one came and stole your stuff, you would still be foolish for taking such a risk. What Tavarish is saying is comon sense. You're confusing the fact that rape is wrong and that the rapist is the one in the wrong, with the fact that people ought to be careful and use common sense. So yes, in a roundabout way, if you wear revealing clothes in a situation where there are potential rapists around, or you walk down the street at night on your own in a dodgy area, you are asking for trouble. Does it mean you deserve to be raped? Certainly not. Does it make you foolish for taking a risk? Yes of course. You're putting words into Tavarish's mouth in an inappropriate way and all he's doing is giving you common sense advice.

(July 9, 2010 at 10:31 am)In This Mind Wrote: So, what you are saying it that it IS my responsibility to be a 'nice girl' and thus avoid being raped. Because 'nice girls' who don't wear revealing clothes, don't get raped.

Goddammit no. Stick your straw men in the garbage where they belong. Did I say anything about NOT wearing revealing clothing? Did I utter or imply anything about a "nice girl"? NO.

What I am saying is that with extra attention comes extra risk. Be more alert. Try not to get into situations where you don't have an exit strategy. If something happens, be prepared with a method of defense. You know, safeguarding - the exact thing I was talking about.

I'm not saying stay home and kick rocks. I'd appreciate it if you didn't make arguments that no one posted.

(July 9, 2010 at 10:31 am)In This Mind Wrote: A woman shouldn't do anything to attract attention to herself, because then she is contributing to her own rape. That is what you are saying. A woman has a responsibility not to attract attention to herself, otherwise she will be raped. That is what you are saying.

That is not what I am saying. I actually wrote in the first line:

"And this is exactly what people are not saying in this thread".

Do you have an issue with context?

(July 9, 2010 at 10:31 am)In This Mind Wrote: So be a 'nice girl' and it won't happen.

Not necessarily, and I never said anything like that, nor did I imply it. You're tearing down straw men at this point and arguing with yourself.

(July 9, 2010 at 10:31 am)In This Mind Wrote: So, if I'd been more alert, I wouldn't have been attacked. I shouldn't have been focusing on doing my job, I should have been focusing on assuming all men are rapists. That is what you are saying.

Oh boy. Where did I say any of this? Didn't I say that some instances are unavoidable? And didn't you say you fought him off, effectively safeguarding yourself and diffusing the situation, confirming exactly what I've been fucking saying the entire time?

If you have trouble grasping concepts, please ask specifically about certain phrases, don't just throw out canards rapid-fire and hope they stick. It's intellectually dishonest and annoying as all hell when the person you're talking to sticks words in your mouth after every sentence.

I wholeheartedly agree with tavarish's actual argument - the part that matters the most.

I just hope that you, In This Mind, find his irritability as entertaining as I do and not take it the wrong way

EvF

ITM is arguing from just one personal example. And we do not know the particular facts, just what is being told.

She calls it "attempted rape" but how do we know this is fact? Did he have his dick out while attacking? Did he say he was going to rape? Or did he just attack? Hell, for all we know he could have just been after your wallet or your car keys. Or was after just beating you up, or killing you, because he had a hatred of women in general.

There was a case here in S.A., I think it was in S.A., not all that long ago where a fella walked into a Gym and began shooting the women in the dancersize class. He just developed a hatred for hot chicks 'cause he couldn't get one to play with him. I read an article about a sniper at a college somewhere who was doing the same thing, only shooting the hotties.

Point is without knowing the facts or more detail of who and why, your ancedotal contribution doesn't weigh much. Even less when made out of straw as Tav has pointed out.

Don't be daft Dotard. You think someone couldn't tell if they were being sexually assaulted? What goes on in your mind?? The question remains the same... what constitutes blame... and I think that's been covered quite well.

I had the discussion years ago about what blame could be apportioned for someone leaving their car unlocked on the road, and then if they left the keys in the lock. The temptation to the thief is heightened, 'tho' they are looking for an opportunity (crime already begun), and want to act on it...

It's clearly morally wrong (IMO) to tempt people to fail. The victims failure and the perpetrator's failure are two separate events.

My friends leave their house open when they're out and their car unlocked.. they're trusting people and there's not much crime in our area. In an area of high crime you'd soon learn to secure your belongings.

People that commit rape are seriously sick. It's a fact of life that you have to be aware of the possibility of attack, and avoid it. In ITM's situation she bore no blame at all.

(July 10, 2010 at 4:21 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Don't be daft Dotard. What goes on in your mind??

A lot more than goes on in yours, obviously.

Point was all we are offered here is an ancedote. Could be an embellished recant of any type of assault for the purpose of rehetoric.

(July 9, 2010 at 11:13 am)tavarish Wrote: Goddammit no. Stick your straw men in the garbage where they belong. Did I say anything about NOT wearing revealing clothing? Did I utter or imply anything about a "nice girl"? NO.

yes, you did. Here, let me quote you:

"What me and others are saying is that women who wear revealing clothing may attract attention, and should safeguard against any ill that can happen from this."

A sugarcoated way of saying "don't wear revealing clothing unless you are already on a man's arm and he can protect you.'

Heard it before.

Quote:Try not to get into situations where you don't have an exit strategy.

A sugarcoated way of saying "Don't leave your house"

Heard it before.

You are saying 'stay home and kick rocks'. Because that's the ONLY way to safeguard yourself. Stay in your house, behind a locked door, with locked and barred windows, with a good security system, a phone in one hand and a gun in the other.

Quote:If something happens, be prepared with a method of defense.

A sugarcoated way of saying "Live your life in paranoia and fear"

Heard it before.

Quote:That is not what I am saying. I actually wrote in the first line:

"And this is exactly what people are not saying in this thread".

You are trying to sugarcoat it and thus claim it isn't what you are saying, but sorry, I've had way to many years of practice seeing through that kind of bullshit.

Quote:Not necessarily, and I never said anything like that, nor did I imply it.

Yes, you did. Let me quote you:

"That doesn't mean that you can't have control over the situation should it occur. This is why safeguarding against and diffusing issues is key."

A woman has NO control over whether or not she is raped.

Quote:Oh boy. Where did I say any of this? Didn't I say that some instances are unavoidable? And didn't you say you fought him off, effectively safeguarding yourself and diffusing the situation, confirming exactly what I've been fucking saying the entire time?

Sweetie, I got LUCKY. Lucky in that he chose broad fucking daylight with other people around to attack. Had he instead struck when I was closing up the office, I'd have been raped. I got lucky in that my rapist, a 6'4" tall construction worker who outmassed me by around 150lbs and had a foot of reach on me was stupid enough to attack after calling my attention to his presence while I happened a weapon already in my hand.

And had there not been other people on the job site who heard the commotion, again, purely through luck as they were coming back to get something out of the vehicles, I'd have been raped AND quite likely killed.

So, enlighten me, on knowledgeable one. What 'safeguarding' and 'diffusing' did I actually have any control over? I didn't make my rapist a stupid inbred impulsive hick, so how exactly did I control the situation? He chose the time. He chose the place. He chose me. All the choices were his. I had absolutely no choices at all in the issue. Without choice, what control did I have?

Quote:If you have trouble grasping concepts, please ask specifically about certain phrases, don't just throw out canards rapid-fire and hope they stick. It's intellectually dishonest and annoying as all hell when the person you're talking to sticks words in your mouth after every sentence.

If you have trouble grasping this simple concept, you are part of the problem. Ready for it? Here goes:

A woman bears absolutely no responsibility or blame for being raped or attacked. The only person who has any choice in the matter, any responsibility, or any blame is the rapist. Anyone who says otherwise is degrading and objectifying women and is part of the reason 1 in 4 women are raped and the conviction rate is so low. Anyone who says otherwise is the reason many women choose not to report their rapes rather than have to deal with judgmental bastards who question their actions and thus put the responsibility onto them for not being 'nice girls'.

Do you know how many women have committed suicide because of dealing with people who made comments like 'well, if you dressed like that, what did you expect?'


Oh, and since Dotard wants details, here are a few:

He ripped my shirt open and twisted one of by breasts hard enough to leave bruises that took almost a month to fade completely. After I stabbed him with the screwdriver informed me that now he was also going to 'fuck your ass too'. Once he had me pinned in the corner, he started trying to get my pants off and kept informing me that he 'knew you wanted it, bitch'. It also was revealed that he'd raped three women prior to raping me. And the fucked up part? Due to people like you and Tav making excuses for why men rape and the role a woman's actions prior to the rape play, he had plenty of time left after his less than a year in jail to go on to rape several more.

In this mind -

I don't know why you're giving Tavarish such a hard time. He's just giving you what most right thinking people would agree is common sense advice and you're reading way too much into his words.

damn, I didn't want to say anything more on the subject, but I am.

Quote:A sugarcoated way of saying "don't wear revealing clothing unless you are already on a man's arm and he can protect you.'

There are other ways of protecting oneself. walking with a group of friends, even if they are all female and dressed just the same as you. Staying in public areas. Other people can protect besides a guy. having a weapon or a pepperspray. yes, be alert, when you are alone, especially in a sketchy area. if you were walking through a place where a lot of muggings were being committed would you be unobservant so that a thief could sneak up behind you?

Quote:Anyone who says otherwise is the reason many women choose not to report their rapes rather than have to deal with judgmental bastards who question their actions and thus put the responsibility onto them for not being 'nice girls'.

that is not the only reason women keep quite. it has significant outcomes with relationships, there is a distinct possiblity that the guy she is with will leave her. He won't believe her or he will feel like he is left with "damaged goods" not saying that is right, but there are other reasons.

I can't think of any others now and my battery is about to die, so I gotta go.

(July 10, 2010 at 1:17 pm)Cego_Colher Wrote: There are other ways of protecting oneself. walking with a group of friends, even if they are all female and dressed just the same as you.

So in addition to being a 'nice girl', one has to be a 'popular girl' as well.

Quote:Staying in public areas.

My friend was raped in a public area. There are women who have been raped on a subway with other people around. Sexual assaults and groping in public is commonplace.

Quote:having a weapon or a pepperspray.

Are often useless when the time comes.

Quote:yes, be alert, when you are alone, especially in a sketchy area. if you were walking through a place where a lot of muggings were being committed would you be unobservant so that a thief could sneak up behind you?

Ah, so, if I was more observant, I wouldn't have been attacked, right?

Quote:that is not the only reason women keep quite.

No, just one of the largest and most common reasons. Having dealt with people like you since my attack, who like to 'help' by pointing out all the things I theoretically could have done to 'avoid' the attack, sometimes I wish I'd kept my mouth shut too. But then, that wouldn't help. Rubbing your nose in your crap and trying to make you understand how your BLAME of the woman does not and will not help the situation other than to silence women, that might just help.

Because if it wasn't for people like you, rape wouldn't be such a life destroying ordeal. A woman would only have to suffer the attack. She wouldn't have to suffer the judgmental eyes of people like you, people who will always weigh and measure her and wonder how she contributed to the attack. Because if they'd just behaved properly and looked out for themselves, they wouldn't have been attacked.

It's how people like you live with yourselves. It's how you convince yourselves that you and your loved ones are safe. After all, none of your loved ones are tawdry sluts and they take care of themselves and look out for themselves, so they won't be raped, right?

It's easier to measure out responsibility to the victim than it is to actually do something about rape. Because you objectify women, and you don't want to deal with the simple fact that your behavior contributes to rape culture. It's easier to blame the victim than it is to cope with the fact that some of your thoughts mirror those of the rapist.

The 'damaged goods', it's amusing your mind leaped there immediately. Well, disgusting might be a better word for it. It illustrates that your thought processes go exactly what I described above. Your girl got raped, so she isn't a 'nice girl' anymore, and since she's just an object, dump her and get a new one.

If it wasn't for people like you apportioning blame, fewer guys would think that way. But hey, easier to blame the victim than it is to make yourself a better person.