Of course, this is just a misunderstanding because Obama told us that ISIS "speaks for no religion".


(Disclaimer: yes this graphic was prepared by a Christian; no I am not a Christian).

I think there's a possibility that radical Muslims are mentally ill

(November 20, 2014 at 8:15 am)DramaQueen Wrote: I think there's a possibility that radical Muslims are mentally ill

If they weren't mentally ill before joining Islamic State, they sure will be afterwards.

I just picked one, number 7, to fact check, and, of course, it's wrong.
Quran 9.111:

9.111. God has bought from the believers their selves and wealth because Paradise is for them. They fight in God's cause, and they kill or are killed. This is a promise with which God has bound Himself in the Torah and in the Gospel and in the Qur'ān. Who could be more faithful to his covenant than God? So (O believers), glad tidings to you because of the bargain you have made with Him! That, indeed, is the supreme triumph. Print E-mail
إِنَّ اللّهَ اشْتَرَى مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَنفُسَهُمْ وَأَمْوَالَهُم بِأَنَّ لَهُمُ الجَنَّةَ يُقَاتِلُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَيَقْتُلُونَ وَيُقْتَلُونَ وَعْداً عَلَيْهِ حَقّاً فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالإِنجِيلِ وَالْقُرْآنِ وَمَنْ أَوْفَى بِعَهْدِهِ مِنَ اللّهِ فَاسْتَبْشِرُواْ بِبَيْعِكُمُ الَّذِي بَايَعْتُم بِهِ وَذَلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ

(November 20, 2014 at 10:19 pm)Lao Shizi Wrote: I just picked one, number 7, to fact check, and, of course, it's wrong.
Quran 9.111:

Nitpicking. Yes, it's true there is no mention of 72 virgins, but the general idea (paradise for martyrs) is supported by the text.

Quote:http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/01/bloggi...ses-81-129

V. 111, with its guarantee of Paradise to those who “kill and are killed” for Allah, has become in the modern age the rationale for suicide bombing. Ibn Kathir explains: “Allah states that He has compensated His believing servants for their lives and wealth “” if they give them up in His cause “” with Paradise.” Ibn Juzayy adds, significantly: “It is said that it was sent down about the Homage of “˜Aqaba [an early pledge of Muslims" willingness to wage war for Islam], but its judgment is general to every believer doing jihad in the way of Allah until the Day of Rising.” So it has been understood. Abu Abdel Aziz, a modern-day jihadist who fought in Afghanistan and Bosnia, said in a 1994 interview: “I have found that the best sacrifice we can offer for the sake of Allah, is our souls, then our possession[s].” Then he quoted v. 111.

The Qur’an says that this promise of Paradise to those who kill and are killed for Allah is also in the Torah and Gospel, but it isn’t — which is in itself more evidence for pious Muslims that those documents have been tampered with.

So, what about the 72 virgins?

Quote:http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins#Authenticity

Whilst there are numerous sources, including the Qur'an, which tell us believing males will be rewarded with virgins, many who are concerned about the authenticity of the 72 virgins concept are under the misconception that there is only one weak (da`if) reference to the exact number of houri given to them. These narrations are in fact found in many hadith collections with varying levels of authenticity, ranging from hasan (good) to sahih (authentic).

For example, in the Sunan Ibn Majah, one of the six major Hadith collections,[31] it states in a hasan (good)[9] narration that every male admitted into Paradise will be given eternal erections and wed to 72 wives, all with libidinous sex organs.[10] Similarly in another hadith with multiple narrators that has been graded hasan (good), it states that the martyr (shahid) will be married to seventy-two of al-hoor al-‘iyn.[32][33]

No stuffed animal for you, sir. Would you like to try again?

"Nitpicking"

None of the statements are proven by the verses. They are misinterpretations of those verses. From the first to the last.

For example, there is a marriage age stated in Quran:


وَابْتَلُوا الْيَتَامَىٰ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغُوا النِّكَاحَ فَإِنْ آنَسْتُمْ مِنْهُمْ رُشْدًا فَادْفَعُوا إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ ۖ وَلَا تَأْكُلُوهَا إِسْرَافًا وَبِدَارًا أَنْ يَكْبَرُوا ۚ وَمَنْ كَانَ غَنِيًّا فَلْيَسْتَعْفِفْ ۖ وَمَنْ كَانَ فَقِيرًا فَلْيَأْكُلْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ۚ فَإِذَا دَفَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ فَأَشْهِدُوا عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ وَكَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ حَسِيبًا

The term used in the above verse, 4:6 is 'balagh-un-Nikah' which means when one is baligh (mature) enough for nikah.

[Pickthal 4:6] Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age; then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto them their fortune; and devour it not by squandering and in haste lest they should grow up Whoso (of the guardians) is rich, let him abstain generously (from taking of the property of orphans); and whoso is poor let him take thereof in reason (for his guardianship). And when ye deliver up their fortune unto orphans, have (the transaction) witnessed in their presence. Allah sufficeth as a Reckoner.

[Yusufali 4:6] Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.

Else where we read:


وَلَا تَقْرَبُوا مَالَ الْيَتِيمِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ حَتَّىٰ يَبْلُغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۚ وَأَوْفُوا بِالْعَهْدِ ۖ إِنَّ الْعَهْدَ كَانَ مَسْئُولًا
[Shakir 17:34] And draw not near to the property of the orphan except in a goodly way till he attains his maturity and fulfill the promise; surely (every) promise shall be questioned about.
[Pickthal 17:34] Come not near the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better till he come to strength; and keep the covenant. Lo! of the covenant it will be asked.
[Yusufali 17:34] Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).

وَلَا تَقْرَبُوا مَالَ الْيَتِيمِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ حَتَّىٰ يَبْلُغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۖ
[Shakir 6:152] And do not approach the property of the orphan except in the best manner until he attains his maturity, and give full measure and weight with justice--
[Yusufali 6:152] And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;

So you can see maturity age is when marriage age is appropriate.

Therefore the first verse quoted might seem to be talking about children but really they are a referring to a medical condition.

As for the verses about violence, there is many verses teaching peace, and to incline to peace if the other people want it, and teaching war is in self defense. Therefore these verses must seen in context of a geopolitical people who were attacking Muslims and not about all non-believers in all times.

I don't know why non-Muslims want Islam to be a violent and bad teaching religion. Why do you want a religion to be evil?

The word beat can be translated as "separate from" "distance yourself from them".

Really, let's face it, if you want to support ANY possible doctrine, odds are, you'll be able to find some backing in the holy book of your choice, especially if you throw context to the wind and ignore passages that are contrary to your view.

(November 28, 2014 at 12:40 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: Really, let's face it, if you want to support ANY possible doctrine, odds are, you'll be able to find some backing in the holy book of your choice, especially if you throw context to the wind and ignore passages that are contrary to your view.

That's a lazy generalisation. If your goal is blind equal hate against all religion, then your job is done. Mission accomplished.

But if your goal is making important (dare I say life threatening) distinctions between religions then you're going to have to talk about the specifics of each religion.

But, fortunately for the lazy (myself included), a quick study of the life of the prophet Mohammed is all that it takes to see why Islam is uniquely qualified to inspire violence, far more so than other religions. Mohammed was a very violent man, nothing like the example of Jesus and the Buddha.

The core of each religion is the imitation of their archetypal prophets. Actions speak louder than words, and it's the deeds of these prophets (and their early followers) that largely define each religion. And they are quite clearly not all the same.

(November 27, 2014 at 10:56 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: None of the statements are proven by the verses. They are misinterpretations of those verses. From the first to the last.

For example, there is a marriage age stated in Quran:


وَابْتَلُوا الْيَتَامَىٰ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغُوا النِّكَاحَ فَإِنْ آنَسْتُمْ مِنْهُمْ رُشْدًا فَادْفَعُوا إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ ۖ وَلَا تَأْكُلُوهَا إِسْرَافًا وَبِدَارًا أَنْ يَكْبَرُوا ۚ وَمَنْ كَانَ غَنِيًّا فَلْيَسْتَعْفِفْ ۖ وَمَنْ كَانَ فَقِيرًا فَلْيَأْكُلْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ ۚ فَإِذَا دَفَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ فَأَشْهِدُوا عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ وَكَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ حَسِيبًا

The term used in the above verse, 4:6 is 'balagh-un-Nikah' which means when one is baligh (mature) enough for nikah.

[Pickthal 4:6] Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age; then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto them their fortune; and devour it not by squandering and in haste lest they should grow up Whoso (of the guardians) is rich, let him abstain generously (from taking of the property of orphans); and whoso is poor let him take thereof in reason (for his guardianship). And when ye deliver up their fortune unto orphans, have (the transaction) witnessed in their presence. Allah sufficeth as a Reckoner.

[Yusufali 4:6] Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.

Else where we read:


وَلَا تَقْرَبُوا مَالَ الْيَتِيمِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ حَتَّىٰ يَبْلُغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۚ وَأَوْفُوا بِالْعَهْدِ ۖ إِنَّ الْعَهْدَ كَانَ مَسْئُولًا
[Shakir 17:34] And draw not near to the property of the orphan except in a goodly way till he attains his maturity and fulfill the promise; surely (every) promise shall be questioned about.
[Pickthal 17:34] Come not near the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better till he come to strength; and keep the covenant. Lo! of the covenant it will be asked.
[Yusufali 17:34] Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).

وَلَا تَقْرَبُوا مَالَ الْيَتِيمِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ حَتَّىٰ يَبْلُغَ أَشُدَّهُ ۖ
[Shakir 6:152] And do not approach the property of the orphan except in the best manner until he attains his maturity, and give full measure and weight with justice--
[Yusufali 6:152] And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;

So you can see maturity age is when marriage age is appropriate.

Therefore the first verse quoted might seem to be talking about children but really they are a referring to a medical condition.

As for the verses about violence, there is many verses teaching peace, and to incline to peace if the other people want it, and teaching war is in self defense. Therefore these verses must seen in context of a geopolitical people who were attacking Muslims and not about all non-believers in all times.

I don't know why non-Muslims want Islam to be a violent and bad teaching religion. Why do you want a religion to be evil?

The word beat can be translated as "separate from" "distance yourself from them".

"Maturity Age" - Which for that paedo you call a prophet, was 6 years old.

Now, as you have ably demonstrated, there isn't a single age defined....just loose fluffy bollocks that can be interpreted in pretty much any way the reader chooses.

Then we come onto the bit of Islam I particularly hate......Muhammed is the role model, the man all of you pathetic sheep aspire to. Anything he does is right and correct, isn't that so?

The Q'uran tells us Aisha was 6 when they married......6.

Which means that the vast majority of Muslims believe it to be absolutely fine. I know, as I work in East London, which has a massive muslim community. I work in a team of 8, 3 are Muslim. I have asked about Aisha and whether Muhammed was wrong to each of them......an awkward silence is the best answer I've got, followed by a pretty rapid change of subject. These are good, decent people by the way.

You're indoctrinated, so cannot see, but your religion, above all others, contains lessons that are now considered evil. As such, evil acts and occurrences are accepted as normal and common place by those who follow that putrid, disgusting religion.