(November 21, 2014 at 11:17 am)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(November 21, 2014 at 10:46 am)Riketto Wrote: When you said.................... NDE's have produced 'visions' of just about every god............ i guessed that you were saying that if different people see different things in a NDE experience you means that the NDE experiences can not be real experiences.
Real experience would lead to the same result according to your logic.
In my example i show you why (according to me) this can not be the case.
As far as Hindus and Buddhism versus other religions my point was not that the first are right and the second are wrong.
It just refer to the fact that some believe in reincarnation and rehabilitation and the other don't offer this chance.

I've never said a word about 'real experiences', I only made a comment on NDE's. My only point is that you cannot use NDE's as evidence for any god, as every religion has NDE's that confirm their faith to the faithful.

If you would read among the thousand of NDEs you will realize that even non religious people have had these experiences.
I guess many ex atheist keep quite about these experiences in order not to feel a bit embarrassed.

Quote:Great, Hindus/Buddhism have a reincarnation doctrine, I know. What does that have to do with NDE's, and why is it relevant to reality?

Actually the issue about one religion versus the other was related only to the fact that one believe in rehabilitation and the other doesn't.
NDEs came in a different context of argument.

Good, so we agree that NDE's have nothing to do with verifying or supporting a religion. Good to hear.

Again, Rikky, I've never said that only theists have NDE's, plenty of atheists and deists and whatever type of people have them as well. But an NDE does not suggest anything about the supernatural. Or, at least we have absolutely no evidence to think they do, as the "supernatural" they supposedly suggest differs greatly from person to person (And unsurprisingly, from culture to culture).

(November 21, 2014 at 11:30 am)Alex K Wrote: @Riketto

They recently did a large study where they tested that by hiding large cards with secret symbols out of view of the patient, which would be visible if floating above one's body. Not one succeeded in seeing them in their floating experience. Checkmate.

So in this study the examiners or assessors knew that the guys would have a real NDE.
Gee you must be the most gullible guy i ever seen!

Here's an article from Scientific American on the topic: http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ear-death/

Some highlights:

Quote:Not all of these experiences actually coincide with brushes with death—one study of 58 patients who recounted near-death experiences found 30 were not actually in danger of dying, although most of them thought they were.

[...]

For instance, the feeling of being dead is not limited to near-death experiences—patients with Cotard or "walking corpse" syndrome hold the delusional belief that they are deceased.

[...]

Out-of-body experiences are also now known to be common during interrupted sleep patterns that immediately precede sleeping or waking. For instance, sleep paralysis, or the experience of feeling paralyzed while still aware of the outside world, is reported in up to 40 percent of all people and is linked with vivid dreamlike hallucinations that can result in the sensation of floating above one's body. A 2005 study found that out-of-body experiences can be artificially triggered by stimulating the right temporoparietal junction in the brain, suggesting that confusion regarding sensory information can radically alter how one experiences one's body.

(November 21, 2014 at 11:39 am)Riketto Wrote:

(November 21, 2014 at 11:30 am)Alex K Wrote: @Riketto

They recently did a large study where they tested that by hiding large cards with secret symbols out of view of the patient, which would be visible if floating above one's body. Not one succeeded in seeing them in their floating experience. Checkmate.

So in this study the examiners or assessors knew that the guys would have a real NDE.
Gee you must be the most gullible guy i ever seen!

So you uncritically count reports of NDEs as evidence for your woo, and when there's a study with thousands of subjects, the NDEs they reported are suddenly not good enough. That's such an embarassingly obvious double standard.

(November 21, 2014 at 11:39 am)Riketto Wrote:

(November 21, 2014 at 11:30 am)Alex K Wrote: @Riketto

They recently did a large study where they tested that by hiding large cards with secret symbols out of view of the patient, which would be visible if floating above one's body. Not one succeeded in seeing them in their floating experience. Checkmate.

So in this study the examiners or assessors knew that the guys would have a real NDE.
Gee you must be the most gullible guy i ever seen!

They asked the patients after if they had a near death experience. If the patients said yes, the doctors asked if they can tell what the large card had on them. The patients that claimed to have NDE couldn't. Checkmate.

(November 21, 2014 at 11:31 am)Riketto Wrote: If you would read among the thousand of NDEs you will realize that even non religious people have had these experiences.
I guess many ex atheist keep quite about these experiences in order not to feel a bit embarrassed.

I pretty much had it with NDEs. First there's this experiment conducted a while ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Parnia

And these are two links to other experiments as well as scientific discovery.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ear-death/

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archiv...ks/278723/

I hope you're one, who actually reads what is posted for them.

(November 21, 2014 at 9:42 am)abaris Wrote:

(November 21, 2014 at 9:35 am)Riketto Wrote: I also put a seed in you so you can let it grow and realize who you really are.

OK, that's a scary image.

So is this:

(November 21, 2014 at 9:43 am)Riketto Wrote: When you will be ready i also will be ready to show you the real thing.

Doctor Freud, please answer your pager.

(November 19, 2014 at 9:09 am)Riketto Wrote: Ok. this is just an hypothetical question so keep cool and calm.
No need to get excited.
WHAT WOULD YOU THINK OR SAY IF YOU DIE AND FIND OUT THAT YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL AND GOD IS THERE?

Your body is left behind to rot but your body is not you anymore.
You are there facing God.
1) Would you say.........oh, well there was no evidence that you existed that is why i never believe that you exist.
2) I was wrong in not looking at all options.
3) I never thought that by refusing to consider that you exist i could not expect that you manifest in my consciousness.

If none of these options come closer to your thinking then please express your thought.
I am curious to know what you would say to this HYPOTHETICAL God in this HYPOTHETICAL case.
Thanks.

I simply cannot take these types of arguments seriously because eternal reward/punishment systems are just silly.

(November 22, 2014 at 12:16 am)GalacticBusDriver Wrote:

(November 19, 2014 at 9:09 am)Riketto Wrote: Ok. this is just an hypothetical question so keep cool and calm.
No need to get excited.
WHAT WOULD YOU THINK OR SAY IF YOU DIE AND FIND OUT THAT YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS IS STILL ALIVE AND WELL AND GOD IS THERE?

Your body is left behind to rot but your body is not you anymore.
You are there facing God.
1) Would you say.........oh, well there was no evidence that you existed that is why i never believe that you exist.
2) I was wrong in not looking at all options.
3) I never thought that by refusing to consider that you exist i could not expect that you manifest in my consciousness.

If none of these options come closer to your thinking then please express your thought.
I am curious to know what you would say to this HYPOTHETICAL God in this HYPOTHETICAL case.
Thanks.

I simply cannot take these types of arguments seriously because eternal reward/punishment systems are just silly.

Rewards and punishments are not what i was interested in my OP.
But if i was in God i wouldn't punish an atheist.
Why would i?
But at the same time i wouldn't reward it either.
When there is not progress or regress that person would just stay in the same spot so to speak.
Beside it is not God that reward or punish.
It is us that decide to go up or down consciously speaking.

---

(November 21, 2014 at 1:25 pm)abaris Wrote:

(November 21, 2014 at 11:31 am)Riketto Wrote: If you would read among the thousand of NDEs you will realize that even non religious people have had these experiences.
I guess many ex atheist keep quite about these experiences in order not to feel a bit embarrassed.

I pretty much had it with NDEs. First there's this experiment conducted a while ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Parnia

And these are two links to other experiments as well as scientific discovery.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ear-death/

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archiv...ks/278723/

I hope you're one, who actually reads what is posted for them.

I am afraid that it is you the one who doesn't read properly.
In this research that you propose it say...............one study of 58 patients who recounted near-death experiences found 30 were not actually in danger of dying, although most of them thought they were..............

http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ear-death/