(July 17, 2010 at 9:55 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: Victim mentality is when you blame others for all your problems, and constantly search out ways to feel aggrieved and not take personal responsibility.

That is not the same as being a victim. I'm advocating that when someone is a victim of rape, you blame the person responsible, instead of looking for ways to blame them.

Victim blaming and victim mentality are two completely separate issues, and you should not conflate the two, but I'm sure you will anyway.

I'm amused that some of the same people who are hating me for being in this thread posted this thread: http://atheistforums.org/thread-4172.html

It's their own fault really.

If you didn't have a dick, she wouldn't want to exterminate you. So, in the interest of offering you just some friendly advice, maybe it would be better if you decreased your risk and took care of that 'having a dick' issue. I'm not saying they should cut off their dicks or anything, I'm just pointing out if they didn't have dicks, this woman wouldn't be calling for their extermination. I mean, you walk around having a dick, you aren't exactly safeguarding yourself and taking personal responsibility are you? Stop being a victim.

Eilonnwy -

Ironically, you are confusing the two. I too am saying that when someone is a victim of rape, you blame the rapist and not the victim. However I'm also saying that if you don't acknowledge personal responsibility, you're a professional victim / victim mentality. Your definitions are correct, which shows that you know the difference, which makes it even more astonishing how you still confuse the two. You interpret the acknowledgement that one should be self responsible as victim blaming.

(July 17, 2010 at 10:00 pm)Godhead Wrote: However I'm also saying that if you don't acknowledge personal responsibility

You have yet to demonstrate that would you call 'personal responsibility' actually has some effect on the chances of being sexually assaulted AND can actually be taken on a practical basis.

Why don't you acknowledge your 'personal responsibility' to actually back up your arguments?

(July 17, 2010 at 10:00 pm)Godhead Wrote: Eilonnwy -

Ironically, you are confusing the two. I too am saying that when someone is a victim of rape, you blame the rapist and not the victim. However I'm also saying that if you don't acknowledge personal responsibility, you're a professional victim / victim mentality. Your definitions are correct, which shows that you know the difference, which makes it even more astonishing how you still confuse the two. You interpret the acknowledgement that one should be self responsible as victim blaming.

And I'm not fucking supposed to? WHAT?

Your statement is absurd to the point of I don't even know what the fuck to say.

Have a good night, Godhead. I'm done with you.

Eilonnwy -

Again, your misunderstanding. I am agreeing with you that the one to blame is the rapist, and not the victim. However that is different to one's personal responsibility to ones own safety, the absense of which is of course a victim mentality. You took that sentence of mine out of context. I was saying that yes, one (you, me, anyone) blames the victim, and rightly so.

Let me put it this way.

If person A insulted person B, and person B murdered person A as a result, would you feel that person A is partially responsible for his murder?

I think most rational people would say, "No, person B took it upon themselves to murder person A and is completely at fault for the action of murder"

Apply that to rape.

I'm sorry for seeming dumb, but I am very confused.

There are women raped in alot of situations, and alot of them are not for flaunting anything ( e.g. muzlim women raped, camon they mostly are completely dressed), sometimes the rapist picks a specific target that triggers his fantasy, take for instance a jogger woman through the park, that the rapist has set his sights on, some might find it sexy, but its not really. Are these responsible? Of course not! In any way...
Even if only women that showed their predicates got raped that still isn't reason to apply responsability to them for ultimately the actions of another.

To say that a woman shouldn't go through dodgy streets at night, shouldn't show half of their gravity center that attract less denser objects like men, may serve at most in a profilactic way to avoid rape, but even if you could eliminate the risks in this scenario, rapists are predators and would simply change their hunting grounds.

To say that a woman should limit her freedom for her security, reminds me of something Ben Franklin said, it goes sometwhat like this:
"Those who surrender freedom for security, deserve neither"

LastPoet,

You're not confused. Seems you grasp victim blaming really well and understand it's 100% the fault of the rapist.

Trying to hold the idea of any responsability of the victim together with my idea of a free society makes me go into 'rationalizing mode' that every avenue of thought goes into contradictions, folowed by a queezy unconfortable feeling. Cognitive dissonance all the way.

Take blaming the victim like a full step. Saying the victim is partially responsible is taking half a step closer towards blaming, thus dimming the line between victim and perpetrator. A line that must be as clear as possible!

So uh yeah, I came here through the post on rage_free ( http://community.livejournal.com/rage_free/78707.html ) and I just wanted to comment as a rape victim, and also a Pakistanian.

Whoever said: "However I'm also saying that if you don't acknowledge personal responsibility, you're a professional victim / victim mentality." Do you even know what victim blaming means? Here's wikipedia's definition: "Victim blaming (or blaming the victim) is holding the victims of a crime, an accident, or any type of abusive maltreatment to be entirely or partially responsible for the unfortunate incident that has occurred in their life."

So yeah, if you're telling a victim to take "responsibility", you're victim-blaming.

Anyway, if dressing a certain way actually did provoke rape, maybe you'd be reasonable, but fact is, it doesn't. Rape has nothing to do with sexual attraction, it has to do with wanting control and power over the victim and liking the fear coming out of them. That is why people rape babies, dogs, old people, people they have no attraction to. That is why countries where women are supposed to be covered head to toe actually have higher rates of actual rape (more about that).

Case in point: I was raped because I was a lesbian. The guy in question had no attraction to me but raped me because he thought he could turn me straight and no, I was not dressed provocatively. At all.

And to the person who denied that our countries have plenty of unreported rapes: I'm telling you right now, you're full of shit. In these countries, due to the rampant misogyny it is extremely easy to get away with rape; very often they will kill the victim for coming out and do nothing to the rapist. Attitudes like yours are common-that is why when I tried to tell my family about my rape, they practically disowned me (thank God we were in America, because back in my country...well I don't wanna think about it). After you're raped you're considered "dirty" somehow and no one wants you. That's actually how a lot of pimps recruit prostitutes, they rape them so that they'll have nothing to turn to afterwards. Victims are constantly denied and silenced.