(December 9, 2014 at 1:00 pm)Surgenator Wrote: Where is the evidence for the "non-visible part?" And personal experiences are not evidence because they're unreliable. schizophrenic patients see things; it doesn't what they see is real.

Ok. so let me ask you one thing.
Suppose you are in love with somebody.......i pop up and ask you to give me evidence that you really are in love with someone.
How do you think you can prove to me that your love is real and such love produce a nice feeling?

Quote:I was indirectly refering to people experiencing high accelarations, i.e. fighter pilots in centrifuges. No drugs or medications were involved. All natural, same effect as NDEs without their lives endangered.
As a side, what is the difference between the dopamine made in a lab and the dopamine made by your body. I'll give you a hint, nothing.

Once again you are making a terrible confusion.
Even accelarations come under the so called induced ways of creating an artificial feeling that you got an NDE.
Drugs and medications although are a different things they also can cause an induced feeling of an NDE so here we got a huge difference between natural death and induced death feeling.
Dopamine and other types of hormones like melatonin are produced by the glands only when the individual need it and the natural death also come when there is a valid reason for it so although the dopamine and other hormone can be produced in lab the final effects can not be the same.
It would be to compare making love with a masturbation.

Quote:The fact Micheal Shermer changes his mind doesn't change his arguments. Please address his arguments not the man.

Shermer is a professional denialist.
He enjoy deny everything without even trying to experience for himself what he is denying.
He search here and there until he find someone who agree with him and then saying that he can prove that such and such belief is wrong based on somebody else idea.
Again he is a bit like you that believe that there is no difference between a natural death an an induce feeling of death.

Quote:Every heard of the "no true scotsman fallacy." If you haven't, look it up because you're commiting it here. You cannot reject yoga practitioners just because they don't fit into your definition.

Put it in the way that you most like it.
To me your comparison doesn't make any sense at all.

(December 10, 2014 at 5:36 am)Riketto Wrote: Ok. so let me ask you one thing.
Suppose you are in love with somebody.......i pop up and ask you to give me evidence that you really are in love with someone.
How do you think you can prove to me that your love is real and such love produce a nice feeling?

So if someone tells you they are in love with someone, you automatically must assume it is true, since it cannot be proven, correct?

I think you'll find some claims require evidence, and some don't, depending on whether you want the claim to be true or not.

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

(December 9, 2014 at 9:29 am)Riketto Wrote: Micheal Shermer is a bit of a nutcase.
He change his views time and time again as the reality emerge.

What, as opposed to a complete nutcase who refuses to change his views no matter what reality says? I know which one iI'd put my money on.

(December 10, 2014 at 5:36 am)Riketto Wrote: Put it in the way that you most like it.
To me your comparison doesn't make any sense at all.

Annoying, isn't it?

(December 10, 2014 at 5:36 am)Riketto Wrote:

(December 9, 2014 at 1:00 pm)Surgenator Wrote: Where is the evidence for the "non-visible part?" And personal experiences are not evidence because they're unreliable. schizophrenic patients see things; it doesn't what they see is real.

Ok. so let me ask you one thing.
Suppose you are in love with somebody.......i pop up and ask you to give me evidence that you really are in love with someone.

I prove my love with my actions and my intentions to the person of interest.

Quote:How do you think you can prove to me that your love is real and such love produce a nice feeling?

Love is a nice feeling.

Quote:

Quote:I was indirectly refering to people experiencing high accelarations, i.e. fighter pilots in centrifuges. No drugs or medications were involved. All natural, same effect as NDEs without their lives endangered.
As a side, what is the difference between the dopamine made in a lab and the dopamine made by your body. I'll give you a hint, nothing.

Once again you are making a terrible confusion.
Even accelarations come under the so called induced ways of creating an artificial feeling that you got an NDE.
Drugs and medications although are a different things they also can cause an induced feeling of an NDE so here we got a huge difference between natural death and induced death feeling.
Dopamine and other types of hormones like melatonin are produced by the glands only when the individual need it and the natural death also come when there is a valid reason for it so although the dopamine and other hormone can be produced in lab the final effects can not be the same.
It would be to compare making love with a masturbation.

LOL. The distiction you're trying to wedge in doesn't exist because the resulting NDEs are the same. For example, if you drove to Las Vegas using highway 93 and I used highway 95, we would still arive at Las Vegas. The method doesn't matter if the effects are the same.

Quote:

Quote:The fact Micheal Shermer changes his mind doesn't change his arguments. Please address his arguments not the man.

Shermer is a professional denialist.
He enjoy deny everything without even trying to experience for himself what he is denying.
He search here and there until he find someone who agree with him and then saying that he can prove that such and such belief is wrong based on somebody else idea.
Again he is a bit like you that believe that there is no difference between a natural death an an induce feeling of death.

Please address Sherman's arguments and not waste time assisinating his character.

Quote:

Quote:Every heard of the "no true scotsman fallacy." If you haven't, look it up because you're commiting it here. You cannot reject yoga practitioners just because they don't fit into your definition.

Put it in the way that you most like it.
To me your comparison doesn't make any sense at all.

Why doesn't make sense to you?

(December 10, 2014 at 1:13 pm)Surgenator Wrote:

(December 10, 2014 at 5:36 am)Riketto Wrote: Ok. so let me ask you one thing.
Suppose you are in love with somebody.......i pop up and ask you to give me evidence that you really are in love with someone.

I prove my love with my actions and my intentions to the person of interest.

Quote:How do you think you can prove to me that your love is real and such love produce a nice feeling?

Love is a nice feeling.

Quote:Once again you are making a terrible confusion.
Even accelarations come under the so called induced ways of creating an artificial feeling that you got an NDE.
Drugs and medications although are a different things they also can cause an induced feeling of an NDE so here we got a huge difference between natural death and induced death feeling.
Dopamine and other types of hormones like melatonin are produced by the glands only when the individual need it and the natural death also come when there is a valid reason for it so although the dopamine and other hormone can be produced in lab the final effects can not be the same.
It would be to compare making love with a masturbation.

LOL. The distiction you're trying to wedge in doesn't exist because the resulting NDEs are the same. For example, if you drove to Las Vegas using highway 93 and I used highway 95, we would still arive at Las Vegas. The method doesn't matter if the effects are the same.

Quote:Shermer is a professional denialist.
He enjoy deny everything without even trying to experience for himself what he is denying.
He search here and there until he find someone who agree with him and then saying that he can prove that such and such belief is wrong based on somebody else idea.
Again he is a bit like you that believe that there is no difference between a natural death an an induce feeling of death.

Please address Sherman's arguments and not waste time assisinating his character.

Quote:Put it in the way that you most like it.
To me your comparison doesn't make any sense at all.

Why doesn't make sense to you?

I only got few minutes before i have to go so i will only answer the last question and leave the rest for tomorrow.
When you say.................It doesn't matter how many people follow exactly what Buddha says. The Buddhist religion says the ultimate goal is to rid oneself of wants. It's all internally focused. So your imaginary seperation between spiritualism is internal and religion is external is bullshit................is not the Buddhist religion that say this.
Buddha has really nothing to do with religion.
Buddha teach spirituality not religion so it is Buddha spiritual message that say that not Buddhism religion that came later.
Religion is all about worship while spirituality is all about self knowledge which eventually lead to God realization.
Those who practice only yoga exercises have really nothing to do with not only spirituality but even with religion because as i just said religion imply worship.
There is no worship in asanas or yoga exercises so these people have nothing to do with either spirituality or religion while 99% of the so called Buddhism follow religion and have nothing to do with spirituality.

Good morning 'ketto. I wonder what your true purpose is for being here. Do you just enjoy the company of atheists? Or are you here for our betterment? I hope some day God will open my eyes to the revealed wisdom of a true teacher. Then I can humbly accept the learning that will place me above all others as you have done.

I really cannot figure out for the life of me what most theists are doing here. I don't mind at all, I'm glad it's an open forum. Just can't grasp what they are trying to achieve.

Respect for coming here at all, though, as long as you're not a hit and run.

(December 11, 2014 at 6:36 am)Riketto Wrote: I only got few minutes before i have to go so i will only answer the last question and leave the rest for tomorrow.
When you say.................It doesn't matter how many people follow exactly what Buddha says. The Buddhist religion says the ultimate goal is to rid oneself of wants. It's all internally focused. So your imaginary seperation between spiritualism is internal and religion is external is bullshit................is not the Buddhist religion that say this.
Buddha has really nothing to do with religion.
Buddha teach spirituality not religion so it is Buddha spiritual message that say that not Buddhism religion that came later.
Religion is all about worship while spirituality is all about self knowledge which eventually lead to God realization.
Those who practice only yoga exercises have really nothing to do with not only spirituality but even with religion because as i just said religion imply worship.
There is no worship in asanas or yoga exercises so these people have nothing to do with either spirituality or religion while 99% of the so called Buddhism follow religion and have nothing to do with spirituality.

I have already address this. The difference between spirituality and religion is NOT interval vs external focus. The difference is touchy-feely bullshit vs organized-written bullshit. Nothing is preventing spiritualist from worshipping Gaia, and nothing is preventing religion on focusing the betterment of themselves.

Christians that don't follow all the rules in their holy book do not stop being Christians. Buddhist that don't adhere to everything in their doctrine do not stop being Buddhist. Yoga praticiners that don't adhere to everything in yoga do not stop being yoga praccticiners. So please that your marriage of the appeal-to-population falacy and no-true-scotsman falacy and throw it away. Falacies only convince the ignorant.