(December 25, 2014 at 1:30 pm)simplemoss Wrote:

(December 24, 2014 at 5:44 pm)psychoslice Wrote: If this is really happening, then whoever they are, their not true Buddhist, don't believe everything you read.

you can say the the same thing about every religion pschoslice, no true Christian would own slaves or condone genocide, no true Muslim would put on a suicide vest and got too a preschool, or no true Catholic would force a kid to give him a bj

It doesn't mean, they dont do it all the time, and that they're religion was the reason they did it.

In fact I've always found it quite racist that Westerners picture Buddhists and peace loving, meditating monks, and that the liberals went from supporting Communist China (they were our ally) too supporting the so-called "free Tibet" movement. Advocating racism and religious oppression, in one of the most rural, and already oppressed corners of the world

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program

I agree, but because we are talking about Buddhist, I didn't mention other religions.

(December 23, 2014 at 3:10 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: I don't know shit all about Buddhism, but I do know about one of your earlier points:

Just because some atheists somewhere shit on something doesn't invalidate something you enjoy personally. If you like Buddhism, then do the research and do what you want. You're always going to piss someone off. If they can make a coherent argument as to why there's some sort of harm in it, then fine, give them the time of day. If it's because they can't say more than "it's a religion" like many numbnutted assholes do, then fuck 'em.

Those same anti-social fucktards say the same thing about atheist meet ups too, just because church people happen to meet up on regular days at regular times.

Ya know, I don't really know shit about the religion either, but it's always seemed more like a peaceful spirituality to me rather than a dogmatic organized religion. I don't really understand some of the hatred I've seen a few hear give it, but if it works for you then go for it.

(December 25, 2014 at 10:28 pm)Elskidor Wrote:

(December 23, 2014 at 3:10 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: I don't know shit all about Buddhism, but I do know about one of your earlier points:

Just because some atheists somewhere shit on something doesn't invalidate something you enjoy personally. If you like Buddhism, then do the research and do what you want. You're always going to piss someone off. If they can make a coherent argument as to why there's some sort of harm in it, then fine, give them the time of day. If it's because they can't say more than "it's a religion" like many numbnutted assholes do, then fuck 'em.

Those same anti-social fucktards say the same thing about atheist meet ups too, just because church people happen to meet up on regular days at regular times.

Ya know, I don't really know shit about the religion either, but it's always seemed more like a peaceful spirituality to me rather than a dogmatic organized religion. I don't really understand some of the hatred I've seen a few hear give it, but if it works for you then go for it.

I agree, ignorant people who criticize things that they know nothing about, the world is a mystery and no atheist will ever know the mystery, but there are many who live in the mystery, that again atheist will never know of.

(December 25, 2014 at 10:28 pm)Elskidor Wrote: Ya know, I don't really know shit about the religion either, but it's always seemed more like a peaceful spirituality to me rather than a dogmatic organized religion. I don't really understand some of the hatred I've seen a few hear give it, but if it works for you then go for it.

I'm sure it's both.

If you want to be the peaceful spiritual type, then fuck it, do it. I know atheist wiccans too, if that makes any sense. They like hanging out with other wiccans, they enjoy participating in the holidays and rituals, they enjoy finding their spirituality in nature, etc. I've thought of joining a local wiccan group myself in order to escape some of the intolerant bullshit I deal with in my atheist group, even - I've been assured that the wiccans won't care if I don't believe in a deity.

The problem is that any sufficiently large group of humans is going to have cohesion problems - if that's even the right descriptor. As soon as the group gets large enough, assholes begin to emerge - people who want to tell you that you're not doing *this* properly, or you fucked *that* up, and not because they have a legit problem with it and also a solution, but just because they like to bitch about things and sound important. There are those in my group who have a personal view on what it means to be a proper atheist, and for some reason they can't understand that it's perfectly acceptable for them to go do those things, and perfectly acceptable for others to go be the sort of atheist they want to be - including a buddhist atheist. I'm not required to hate religion in all its forms and denounce anything that vaguely smells like religion in order to be an atheist. I just have to not believe in god. The rest is up to me. Same goes for the OP. Wanna be an atheist buddhist? Knock yourself out. When you start breaking civic laws or hurting others in a significant manner (and I don't include "butt-hurt" in this), then you reconsider. Until then, follow whatever path leads you to being a whole, happy, healthy, and productive human being.

A proper atheist should only require the lack in a god or the description needs some updating. Anyway, I agree with you.

(December 25, 2014 at 11:08 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: If you want to be the peaceful spiritual type, then fuck it, do it. I know atheist wiccans too, if that makes any sense. They like hanging out with other wiccans, they enjoy participating in the holidays and rituals, they enjoy finding their spirituality in nature, etc. I've thought of joining a local wiccan group myself in order to escape some of the intolerant bullshit I deal with in my atheist group, even - I've been assured that the wiccans won't care if I don't believe in a deity.

Makes perfect sense. I was one of them for over a decade and never gave god or gods any thought. It's not a requirement after all. The only requirement is simply not to harm other people and I can perfectly live with that.

(December 25, 2014 at 10:28 pm)Elskidor Wrote: Ya know, I don't really know shit about the religion either, but it's always seemed more like a peaceful spirituality to me rather than a dogmatic organized religion.

Because you've been sold a product specifically catered to your western sensibilities. A brand of buddhism, if you will.

Quote: I don't really understand some of the hatred I've seen a few hear give it, but if it works for you then go for it.

More irritation, on my end, than hatred. They have largely avoided the sort of brutal scrutiny applied by centuries of experience with the faiths in our familiar orbits. A portion of that has been careful PR. The history of buddhism, as a faith -and relative to the people who hold it- is unremarkable. They've had their violent insurrections and sectarian blood feuds. Buddhism has had a theocratic state and it was as brutally repressive as any of it's peers.

Ultimately, though, as I said..this is unremarkable....it's the perception - sold by buddhism and buddhists..and perpetuated by the fringe and the new age and people "open" to this or that, aided by our obsession with the east (going back centuries)that somehow: buddhism is different.

It isn't.

Okay, y'all, here goes...

Please understand that Buddhism is living tradition 2500 years old that has spread over vast territory. The Buddha himself created a very rational philosophy inside a minimalistic religion, but when he set out to teach, he found that people had expectations about religions. At one point a follower said, "The people wish to have festivals and ceremonies" and he answered, "Let them have festivals and ceremonies." And yes, people misuse Buddhism. This is a major world religion, meaning it is tied up in the process of multi-ethnic state formation. You can't go through that without causing some damage. There are Buddhist terrorists. Contrary to American romantic notions, old Tibet was pretty awful, a feudal theocracy with some grave social problems (like all feudal states). Some Buddhists worship gods, usually because they were a preexisting part of their culture and when Buddhism came, the gods converted and now try to follow the Eightfold Path themselves, though technically only humans (meaning no snake people, apparently) can achieve Enlightenment, because we balance suffering with rationality.

Are y'all familiar with how Siddhartha came to study religion? After leading a totally protected life, he sneaked out of his palace and saw people in pain, sick people and death. Then he say a monk mediating and decided to find out how said monk found peace in a world filled with suffering. Basically, he decided to find out what religion was good for and what bits were important to finding that peace and what bits were nonsense. Then over time, people tacked lots of the nonsense back on, as people do.

Karma: Westerners generally misunderstand karma. It does not mean that doing something bad makes bad things happen to you. Rather, it's the process by which people who do good things become happy and lead fulfilling lives. When you help someone, you feel good. Karma. When you lead a mindful, ethical life with a good amount of introspection, you become a better person, etc. It's also your spiritual DNA, but that qualifies as supernatural.

I realized I was Buddhist while taking a class on the subject as part of a Japanese major. It was rather like how some people describe realizing that they're gay - you've always thought in a certain way, and understood certain things, but until that moment, you didn't know there was a word for it, much less that there was more to know. It was during a lecture on dependent co-origination, how everything has multiple causes and sources vs the Abrahamic idea of First Cause.

So, yeah. The good news is that a new flower is being added to the Buddhist garden - the Western Vehicle (vehicle=collection of teaching), and it's most certainly going to be atheistic, a combination of Zen and Theravada and pretty much secular.

How Buddhism is different:
1)We make no claim to having the Truth, in fact, we don't believe in it. We are not exclusivists, and Buddhism has a history of preserving local religions rather than destroying them.
2)We are absolutely adaptable. Buddhism is the best way to end suffering. If a better way comes along, then that is the new Buddhism.
3)We're required to be rational and to question the teaching of our religion.
4)Ahimsa - harmlessness. "Ahimsa paramo dharma", meaning, basically, whatever gets you to lead a peaceful life is enough. If that's atheist or Islam or vegetarianism or socialism, if it works for you, I don't question it.
5)We believe the purpose of religion is to end (mental) suffering and find peace. That's all the religion bit is about.

Quote:2)We are absolutely adaptable. Buddhism is the best way to end suffering. If a better way comes along, then that is the new Buddhism.

Cool, you have the no true scotsman-o-matic built into the definition of your religion! If that isn't progress.

Quote:Are y'all familiar with how Siddhartha came to study religion?

Yup. Learned it in our (technically denominational protestant) religion class in HS.

But when you lecture us like that on what Karma really means and the tenets of buddhism are, are you sure you are being representative of the huge religion of buddhism, or are you presenting your personal interpretation as the "real" one?

Good point. It is said that there is no 'Buddhism' merely Buddhist X at point Y and date Z. From the Wikipedia article on Buddhist karma, and the definition I learned:

The "law of karma" applies

...specifically to the moral sphere [It is] not concerned with the general relation between actions and their consequences, but rather with the moral quality of actions and their consequences, such as the pain and pleasure and good or bad experiences for the doer of the act.

But it's also something like your spiritual DNA, assuming you believe in rebirth, the part you pass on. Only in the West do you find the idea of "I found that dollar 'cause I just gave money to the homeless guy."

I you want to know about the life of Siddhartha, or just see a visually stunning movie, try "The Little Buddha". Debate later why Keanu Reeves is the default Hollywood choice for messiah.

For my own personal religion, I add this:

the next buddha will have skin the color of dirt, six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot. oh, yeah, and a freakin' righteous 'fro. and sunglasses - 'cause you gotta wear your sunglasses, so you can feel cool.

after he encounters nirvana, he will be tested. the MAN, lord of addiction and greed, will rise up before him and offer him all the moneys of the world. the buddha will look up and say "they are but dirt and ashes to my eyes, " and the money will burn and the gold will rust into dirt.

then the MAN will threat with all the armies of the oppressors. guns will be aimed, missiles will be armed, bombs will lock on target. the MAN will push his button and the weapons of hell will fly. then the buddha will look upon them and smile, and they will turn to flower petals and tabs of LSD and rain down upon the peoples.

at last, the MAN, knowing he has lost, will challenge "you are alone, who will know your accomplishment?" and the buddha will look towards the camera and smile, "the world is my witness".

i keep telling people this, and they just laugh - "wow, what an imagination", as if i'm kidding.