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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 1:23 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 1:27 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 17, 2015 at 12:43 pm)Heywood Wrote: Why is it you don't observe spontaneous evolutionary systems come into existence except in situations where intellect is involved? If evolution is a just a natural consequence of the laws of physics we should see evolutionary systems come into existence just about everywhere. We do not so maybe your hypothesis is wrong. Except, of course....that by the definition you seem to be using, we do. You just don't like the consequences of your own assertions (as repeatedly demonstrated in this thread). :Shrugs:
You implied that the motion of water was not a legitimate example of the action of intellect, and yet rivers fit your definition for "evolutionary systems" if procedural gens do.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 1:30 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 1:31 pm by Heywood.)
(January 17, 2015 at 1:23 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (January 17, 2015 at 12:43 pm)Heywood Wrote: Why is it you don't observe spontaneous evolutionary systems come into existence except in situations where intellect is involved? If evolution is a just a natural consequence of the laws of physics we should see evolutionary systems come into existence just about everywhere. We do not so maybe your hypothesis is wrong. Except, of course....that by the definition you seem to be using, we do. You just don't like the consequences of your own assertions (as repeatedly demonstrated in this thread). :Shrugs:
You implied that the motion of water was not a legitimate example of the action of intellect, and yet rivers fit your definition for "evolutionary systems" if procedural gens do.
I do not consider rivers to be an evolutionary system. Do you? If you do not why do you bring them up for discussion except for obfuscation?
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 1:32 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 1:30 pm)Heywood Wrote: I do not consider rivers to be an evolutionary system. Do you? If you do not why do you bring them up for discussion except for obfuscation?
What do you consider to be the attributes of an evolutionary system?
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 1:39 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 1:30 pm)Heywood Wrote: I do not consider rivers to be an evolutionary system. Do you? If you do not why do you bring them up for discussion except for obfuscation? Because you're inconsistent with the application of your assertions. That's not my problem.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 1:48 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 1:49 pm by Heywood.)
(January 17, 2015 at 1:32 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: (January 17, 2015 at 1:30 pm)Heywood Wrote: I do not consider rivers to be an evolutionary system. Do you? If you do not why do you bring them up for discussion except for obfuscation?
What do you consider to be the attributes of an evolutionary system?
I would define evolution as follows:
Evolution is a process whereby changes in the heritable traits which reside in a given population accumulate through a selection mechanism over successive generations. The accumulation of these changes can result in an increase or decrease in one or more of the following: complexity, diversity, and knowledge.
Key attributes of evolution:
replication
heritable traits
change
selection
A river system does not contain the key attributes of evolution so it is not an evolutionary system.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 1:53 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 1:56 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
You're likely using "heritable traits" (as well as "replication")as a weasel phrase. Procedural gens, for example (like your spider sim) do not have any mechanism for heredity (to imply that they do in the manner of biological evolution, for example, is equivocation regardless). Unless they do (so sayeth you)....at which point so do rivers.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 1:54 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 1:58 pm by Heywood.)
(January 17, 2015 at 1:39 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (January 17, 2015 at 1:30 pm)Heywood Wrote: I do not consider rivers to be an evolutionary system. Do you? If you do not why do you bring them up for discussion except for obfuscation? Because you're inconsistent with the application of your assertions. That's not my problem.
Your claim is that evolution is just a procedural gen and we see procedure gen everywhere so we see evolution everywhere. Well cars are just a collection of atoms and we see collections of atoms everywhere so we see cars everywhere. That big white round thing in the sky with lots of craters on it....that is a naturally occurring car....because it is a collection of atoms just like a car is.
Do you see why I think your thinking here is absurd?
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 1:57 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 2:01 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
That's your claim. You decided that they were, not me. Your constant attempts to shift the focus make your "argument" transparent. My position is irrelevant, regardless of what it may be.
(to inject a little "intellect" into the discussion. Since I understand how a procedural gen works, I can definitively state that a procedural gen and biological evolution -are not- the same thing, even though they leverage the same mechanics. On the latter, why wouldn't they? They both exist in the same universe where the same rules apply. I suppose that I just don't find this to be as mysterious as you do...kind of the height of the mundane, to be honest. A "no shit" sort of statement.)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 2:02 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 1:57 pm)Rhythm Wrote: That's your claim. You decided that they were, not me. Your constant attempts to shift the focus make your "argument" transparent. My position is irrelevant, regardless of what it may be.
No...you introduced this concept of procedural gen to thread and you were being cagey with it. So in an attempt to see where you were going, I said sure a evolution is a procedural gen. If you asked me if a car was a collection of atoms...I would agree that it is too. Now if your going to tell me that the moon is a car because it is a collection of atoms like a car is, I am going to call you out for being ridiculous.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 2:02 pm
And I am going to have sex with your strawman.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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