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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 2:52 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 2:23 pm)Heywood Wrote: You do not need gravity to have evolution. 
Without gravity, there are no stars.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 3:13 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 3:22 pm by Heywood.)
(January 17, 2015 at 2:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (January 17, 2015 at 2:16 pm)Heywood Wrote: How so? In a very recent post I stated what the key elements of evolution are. How does a river system have those key elements? Go through each element and show that it applies to river systems. If we are to actually have a discussion, you have to make some points and not just claim I am wrong or ignorant. A river system...blah....blah....blah....spit.....swallow
You did not answer my question. Here it is again. In a very recent post I stated what the key elements of evolution are. How does a river system have those key elements? Go through each element and show that it applies to river systems.
(January 17, 2015 at 2:52 pm)IATIA Wrote: (January 17, 2015 at 2:23 pm)Heywood Wrote: You do not need gravity to have evolution.
Without gravity, there are no stars.
Yes gravity is a requirement for stars. But stars are not a requirement for evolution. The required elements of evolution are:
replication
heritable traits
change
selection
When do you ever see these elements or pre-requisites come together without intellects? I suppose you could ask when do you ever see these elements or pre-requisites come together without stars. Well there is nothing in principle to prevent an intellect from going to a place in the universe devoid of stars and putting these elements together.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 3:41 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 3:42 pm by Mudhammam.)
(January 17, 2015 at 3:13 pm)Heywood Wrote: Yes gravity is a requirement for stars. But stars are not a requirement for evolution. The required elements of evolution are:
replication
heritable traits
change
selection
When do you ever see these elements or pre-requisites come together without intellects? I suppose you could ask when do you ever see these elements or pre-requisites come together without stars. Well there is nothing in principle to prevent an intellect from going to a place in the universe devoid of stars and putting these elements together. Here's what you're doing with chemistry---see if you can follow why it appears to all of us to only evidence the supremacy of one thing (hint: the opposite of divine intellect).
When have you seen dirt and sand piled atop of each other to form a peak---without intellect? Like sand castles, mountains must be intelligently designed. We have seen lakes and rivers built by intellects---hence all rivers and lakes were carved by hands attached to an intellect. Same with shelter. Humans build houses, so what are we to think of caves? Intelligently designed.
So. Fugging. Stupid.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 3:52 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 3:13 pm)Heywood Wrote: Yes gravity is a requirement for stars. But stars are not a requirement for evolution. The required elements of evolution are:
replication
heritable traits
change
selection
When do you ever see these elements or pre-requisites come together without intellects? I suppose you could ask when do you ever see these elements or pre-requisites come together without stars. Well there is nothing in principle to prevent an intellect from going to a place in the universe devoid of stars and putting these elements together. You know ASOLUTELY NOTHING about anything you are talking about. READ A FUCKING BOOK!
Nothing in the universe can exist without stars. PERIOD.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 3:52 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 3:53 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If you had an honest contribution to make, you wouldn't have needed to snip my post in your "quote" Heywood. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 3:54 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 3:41 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: (January 17, 2015 at 3:13 pm)Heywood Wrote: Yes gravity is a requirement for stars. But stars are not a requirement for evolution. The required elements of evolution are:
replication
heritable traits
change
selection
When do you ever see these elements or pre-requisites come together without intellects? I suppose you could ask when do you ever see these elements or pre-requisites come together without stars. Well there is nothing in principle to prevent an intellect from going to a place in the universe devoid of stars and putting these elements together. Here's what you're doing with chemistry---see if you can follow why it appears to all of us to only evidence the supremacy of one thing (hint: the opposite of divine intellect).
When have you seen dirt and sand piled atop of each other to form a peak---without intellect? Like sand castles, mountains must be intelligently designed. We have seen lakes and rivers built by intellects---hence all rivers and lakes were carved by hands attached to an intellect. Same with shelter. Humans build houses, so what are we to think of caves? Intelligently designed.
So. Fugging. Stupid.
All those things you describe, peaks, lakes, rivers, etc.....We've observed those form without intellects. The proposition that all peaks are formed by intellects is clearly false. What we haven't observed is an evolutionary system form without an intellect. If you ever see an evolutionary system form without an intellect, please let me know. Until someone does, why should I consider the proposition, "All evolutionary systems need intellects" to be false? Cause its a tenant of your faith? Sorry....not a good enough reason. Show me an observation.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 4:05 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 3:54 pm)Heywood Wrote: All those things you describe, peaks, lakes, rivers, etc.....We've observed those form without intellects. The proposition that all peaks are formed by intellects is clearly false. What we haven't observed is an evolutionary system form without an intellect. If you ever see an evolutionary system form without an intellect, please let me know. Until someone does, why should I consider the proposition, "All evolutionary systems need intellects" to be false? Cause its a tenant of your faith? Sorry....not a good enough reason. Show me an observation. "Evolutionary systems" in nature are but chemical changes acting in accordance to their internal constituents and basic physical principles, like those that form peaks, lakes, and rivers, though unlike mountain ranges, we witness chemical changes to occur without any intellectual involvement everywhere and every day.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 4:11 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 3:54 pm)Heywood Wrote: why should I consider the proposition, "All evolutionary systems need intellects" to be false? Other than having shown the proposition to be false yourself? Gee, who knows. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 4:14 pm
(This post was last modified: January 17, 2015 at 4:22 pm by Heywood.)
(January 17, 2015 at 3:52 pm)IATIA Wrote: (January 17, 2015 at 3:13 pm)Heywood Wrote: Yes gravity is a requirement for stars. But stars are not a requirement for evolution. The required elements of evolution are:
replication
heritable traits
change
selection
When do you ever see these elements or pre-requisites come together without intellects? I suppose you could ask when do you ever see these elements or pre-requisites come together without stars. Well there is nothing in principle to prevent an intellect from going to a place in the universe devoid of stars and putting these elements together. You know ASOLUTELY NOTHING about anything you are talking about. READ A FUCKING BOOK!
Nothing in the universe can exist without stars. PERIOD.
There was a time in the universe when there were no stars.....yet stuff existed. I think it is you who needs to read a book.
(January 17, 2015 at 4:11 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (January 17, 2015 at 3:54 pm)Heywood Wrote: why should I consider the proposition, "All evolutionary systems need intellects" to be false? Other than having shown the proposition to be false yourself? Gee, who knows.
You've only stated the proposition to be false. You have never once came up with an observation that it is false. I will accept that rivers occur without intellect. If you can, and now I am asking for the third time, show how a river system contains the following elements required of an evolutionary system...then I will be happy to concede.
Again those elements are:
replication
heritable traits
change
selection
Keep saying I am wrong doesn't make me wrong.....you have to show that I am wrong.
(January 17, 2015 at 4:05 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: (January 17, 2015 at 3:54 pm)Heywood Wrote: All those things you describe, peaks, lakes, rivers, etc.....We've observed those form without intellects. The proposition that all peaks are formed by intellects is clearly false. What we haven't observed is an evolutionary system form without an intellect. If you ever see an evolutionary system form without an intellect, please let me know. Until someone does, why should I consider the proposition, "All evolutionary systems need intellects" to be false? Cause its a tenant of your faith? Sorry....not a good enough reason. Show me an observation. "Evolutionary systems" in nature are but chemical changes acting in accordance to their internal constituents and basic physical principles, like those that form peaks, lakes, and rivers, though unlike mountain ranges, we witness chemical changes to occur without any intellectual involvement everywhere and every day.
You can say the exact same thing about cars. Except to re-configure a collection of atoms into a car requires intellect. Evolution is a specific process with certain identifiable elements and you have yet to demonstrate that process being implemented without the need of an intellect.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 17, 2015 at 4:49 pm
(January 17, 2015 at 4:14 pm)Heywood Wrote: You can say the exact same thing about cars. Except to re-configure a collection of atoms into a car requires intellect. Evolution is a specific process with certain identifiable elements and you have yet to demonstrate that process being implemented without the need of an intellect. Just because *you* don't understand that process doesn't mean your castle in the sky clarifies or resolves anything about it... "Unless you want us to behave like tragic poets, who introduce a deus ex machina whenever they're perplexed. For we, too, could escape our difficulties by saying that... they were given by the gods."
2,415 years later and apparently Socrates' words still go over his audience's heads.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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