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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 18, 2015 at 4:22 pm
(This post was last modified: January 18, 2015 at 4:31 pm by helyott.)
your point 2 is a implausible argument.
The aim of this argument is to prove that there is an architect.
Where is the architect ? A proof ?
Your argument is useless and needless.
I don't argue there is an architect. You argue this.
You must prove this.
" whenever we observe an evolutionary system come into existence we always observe an intellect involved in that implementation "... Have you some exemples of evolutionary system come into existence ? ? ? I mean real evolutionary systems... Not computer system or that kind of stuff that is an artificial création i want a evolutionary system with true living organism not created bye human kind ?
I guess it will be difficult to find.
If God is the answer to your question, it means that you have asked the wrong question.
A good question always ask how never why.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 18, 2015 at 4:30 pm
(This post was last modified: January 18, 2015 at 4:35 pm by Heywood.)
(January 18, 2015 at 4:22 pm)helyott Wrote: your point 2 is a implausible argument.
The aim of this argument is to prove that there is an architect.
Where is the architect ? A proof ?
Your argument is useless and needless.
I don't argue there is an architect. You argue this.
You must proove this bigot.
If point 2 is an implausible argument, falsify it by providing an example that is contrary to it. Just saying it is an implausible argument says nothing of substance.
(January 18, 2015 at 4:22 pm)helyott Wrote: whenever we observe an evolutionary system come into existence we always observe an intellect involved in that implementation... Have you some exemples of evolutionary system come into existence ? ? ? I mean real evolutionary systems... Not computer system or that kind of stuff that is an artificial création i want a evolutionary system with true living organism not created bye human kind ?
I guess it will be difficult to find.
Computer simulated evolution is real evolution as far as I am concerned. It simulates biological evolution by evolving variables encoded into a computer program.
But I have presented the game Chinese Whispers as an example of an evolutionary system which is not biological nor does it run on a computer(although Rhythm would say it does because to him essentially every bit of matter is computer(thats the jist of the word salad he spews as far as I can tell)).
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 18, 2015 at 4:55 pm
(This post was last modified: January 18, 2015 at 5:07 pm by helyott.)
(January 18, 2015 at 4:30 pm)Heywood Wrote: (January 18, 2015 at 4:22 pm)helyott Wrote: your point 2 is a implausible argument.
The aim of this argument is to prove that there is an architect.
Where is the architect ? A proof ?
Your argument is useless and needless.
I don't argue there is an architect. You argue this.
You must proove this bigot.
If point 2 is an implausible argument, falsify it by providing an example that is contrary to it. Just saying it is an implausible argument says nothing of substance.
(January 18, 2015 at 4:22 pm)helyott Wrote: whenever we observe an evolutionary system come into existence we always observe an intellect involved in that implementation... Have you some exemples of evolutionary system come into existence ? ? ? I mean real evolutionary systems... Not computer system or that kind of stuff that is an artificial création i want a evolutionary system with true living organism not created bye human kind ?
I guess it will be difficult to find.
Computer simulated evolution is real evolution as far as I am concerned. It simulates biological evolution by evolving variables encoded into a computer program.
But I have presented the game Chinese Whispers as an example of an evolutionary system which is not biological nor does it run on a computer(although Rhythm would say it does because to him essentially every bit of matter is computer).
Computer simulated evolution is real evolution of virtual animals.
As we are writing about true animals and true life your argument can't be accepted.
All the creation you are dealing with are artificial creations. Because you have 2 created creations who are artificial you can't argue that life is created by intelligence or planification.
I have an exemple of evolutionary system come into existence : The system we are living in and that we can modelize with computer. With a computer can you create a true living system in true life ? ? ? Nop.
You are a sophist.
On earth some artificial system with evolution inside can exist = is true.
This artificial system is made by man ( because a computer must be programmed ) = Is true.
Man is intelligent. I will say yes.. But...
All real living system is created by intelligent planification. False.
What you have "proved" is that we can create only artificial evoluting system nothing else.
Try another argument please.
If God is the answer to your question, it means that you have asked the wrong question.
A good question always ask how never why.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 18, 2015 at 8:11 pm
(This post was last modified: January 18, 2015 at 8:20 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 18, 2015 at 4:12 pm)Heywood Wrote: 1. we can observe evolutionary systems come into existence.
2. whenever we observe an evolutionary system come into existence we always observe an intellect involved in that implementation.
3. 1 and 2 suggest that evolutionary systems do not come into existence without the involvement of an intellect. 2 is an issue of correlation -if true-, not causation or necessity. It's also factually untrue, so long as you hold on to the examples that you have, and this is by definition. You're also trying a bait and switch in this step, between the evolutionary system and it's implementation. Rework 1 and 3 to reference implementation rather than evolutionary systems, then provide an example of -that other thing-, if possible.
3 Doesn't follow from 1 and 2 -even if true-.
Quote:If I am wrong, it should be fairly easy to show that I am wrong by simply presenting an observation of an evolutionary system coming into existence without the involvement of an intellect.
It -is- fairly easy, that's why I pointed this out to you many, many pages ago, and why many others have found many ways to explain the very same thing with a variety of examples through the entirety of the thread.
Quote:Your beliefs are not a compelling reason to change my beliefs.
-and yours aren't rational or factually accurate, even though you clearly find them compelling.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 19, 2015 at 3:20 am
(This post was last modified: January 19, 2015 at 3:26 am by Heywood.)
(January 18, 2015 at 4:55 pm)helyott Wrote: Computer simulated evolution is real evolution of virtual animals.
As we are writing about true animals and true life your argument can't be accepted.
All the creation you are dealing with are artificial creations. Because you have 2 created creations who are artificial you can't argue that life is created by intelligence or planification.
Mycoplasma laboratorium is a species of life created in the laboratory. Its DNA was constructed in a lab and the organism was assembled. It is a living thing constructed by intellects that is now evolving. Your claim that intellects only create evolutionary systems which evolve artificial non living things is false.
It has been demonstrated that intellects can create evolutionary systems which evolve biological things. It has been demonstrated that intellects can create evolutionary systems which evolve virtual things. Its been demonstrated that intellects can create evolutionary systems which evolve information. It has been demonstrated that intellects can create evolutionary systems which evolve in animate things.
What has never been demonstrated to be true.....ever.....is the claim that evolutionary systems can come into existence without the involvement of intellects.
Again, I ask you to give a clear example of an evolutionary system which was observed to come into existence which did not require the involvement of an intellect. Put up or shut up.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 19, 2015 at 3:34 am
Who knows, the universe is a mystery, and that's how it should be.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 19, 2015 at 8:12 am
(January 19, 2015 at 3:20 am)Heywood Wrote: What has never been demonstrated to be true.....ever.....is the claim that evolutionary systems can come into existence without the involvement of intellects. I'm, starting to think that -you- are a procedural gen...and the coder forgot to add an end command line.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 19, 2015 at 3:23 pm
(January 19, 2015 at 8:12 am)Rhythm Wrote: (January 19, 2015 at 3:20 am)Heywood Wrote: What has never been demonstrated to be true.....ever.....is the claim that evolutionary systems can come into existence without the involvement of intellects. I'm, starting to think that -you- are a procedural gen...and the coder forgot to add an end command line.
Well when you guys present an observation of an evolutionary system coming into existence without an intellect I will have stop asking you guys to falsify my claim instead of just asserting that it is false like you are doing now.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 19, 2015 at 3:25 pm
(This post was last modified: January 19, 2015 at 3:28 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Except that no ones simply asserted it. It's been explained to you, at length, multiple times - with reference. This thread exists Heywood, and is now 58 pages long......
Hows about that little numbered list - while we're on the topic of observation, feel any need to readdress any part of that? Like the part that says "even if true"?
(meanwhile, no one actually has to provide you with what you're demanding - it's been provided out of conversational courtesy)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 19, 2015 at 3:37 pm
(January 18, 2015 at 1:55 pm)Heywood Wrote: (January 18, 2015 at 1:47 pm)Chas Wrote: If you say that it might require intellect, fine. But you keep insisting that it does require it and you have not demonstrated that
My claim is that evolution does not need it - "je n'ai pas eu besoin de cette hypothèse". Once there are replicating organisms, then evolution will occur.
If you are specifically talking about abiogeneis, then just say so and quit conflating it with evolution.
I'm not insisting that it does. I am claiming there is reason to believe that it does because when you observe the implementation of evolutionary systems...in every observation you can find the involvement of an intellect. What good reason exists to claim that it doesn't?
What the actual fuck do you mean "implementation of evolutionary systems"? There is no system; variation and selection are mindless.
The only place for inserting intellect would be abiogenesis.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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