I have heard the following argument used for the existence of God. Since I doubt anyone will say that the actions of Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer are not truly evil then I say the following makes a good argument. What are your opinions?

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
2.Evil Exists.
3.Therefore, objective moral values exist (some things are truly evil).
4.Therefore, God exists.

(August 17, 2010 at 3:01 am)rybak303 Wrote: 1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
2.Evil Exists.
3.Therefore, objective moral values exist (some things are truly evil).
4.Therefore, God exists.

First of all, life-- whatever it is-- is not a syllogism.

Secondly, what you call "evil" is a quality human beings ascribe to certain actions-- and some things are regarded as "evil" by some which are not at all "evil" to others. And, collectively, there are many things that were once considered "good" that are now regarded as "evil" today. So at point #2 the whole syllogism breaks down. "Evil"-- even if there were such a thing-- is not as clear cut as one might like it to be.

Personally, I don't actually know if it is possible to argue for or against God as most know it. Especially using present day human language. In the end, the choice you make for or against must be your own. But this is a good point,

Quote:Evil ..... is not as clear cut as one might like it to be.

And can be expanded into; Evil & Good are not as clear cut as one might like it to be.

But, if god is supposed to be everthing, would it not be both good, evil, and everthing in between.

(August 17, 2010 at 3:01 am)rybak303 Wrote: 1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.

I don't see how that logically follows.

Quote:2.Evil Exists.

I only believe it exists in the sense the concept of evil. But I also believe the concept of God and the concept of the Easter Bunny exists. So as I don't state that I believe they exist I'd say I don't believe in 'Evil' either. Moral evil that is. Natural disasters obviously happen.

Quote:3.Therefore, objective moral values exist (some things are truly evil).

I don't agree with the first two points so I say, no.

Quote:4.Therefore, God exists.

Even if I agreed with point '2' and '3' (and I don't), I still don't agree with point '1' so I don't agree with point '4' either.

Furthermore, point '2' and '3' don't logically follow if point '2''s meaning of "Evil exists" doesn't mean "objective moral evil exists", and I certainly don't agree with that meaning. As I said, as far I'll go is the concept of evil existing and I'll go that far with God and the easterbunny - their concepts obviously exist. That in no way means they do. The same with moral evil.

rybak303, do you actually read any of the replies made to you or are you just copy/pasting messages all over this board?

Quote:rybak303 Wrote:
1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.

EoF replied

Quote:I don't see how that logically follows.

It doesn't, nor has the existence of objective moral values been established. Nor is the existence of such values universally accepted as necessary or desirable.

(August 17, 2010 at 3:01 am)rybak303 Wrote: I have heard the following argument used for the existence of God. Since I doubt anyone will say that the actions of Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer are not truly evil then I say the following makes a good argument. What are your opinions?

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
2.Evil Exists.
3.Therefore, objective moral values exist (some things are truly evil).
4.Therefore, God exists.

Invalid argument.....

Morals are purely subjective.

Whilst no-one here would suggest that the actions of Bundy or Dahmer were good, what is the difference between that and the Sharia law stoning of women merely suspected of adultery.

Said stoning being considered very moral in those countries where Sharia law applies.

Hi, yes I do read all these replies. I have been searching as to which side on the debate between atheists and theists (mostly Christian) have the best case. So after reading books from both atheists and theists I wrote down questions that both sides brought up and have been sending them to a couple of Christian and Atheist forums. I am just curious to see how good the answers are that each side comes up with.

(August 17, 2010 at 3:01 am)rybak303 Wrote: I have heard the following argument used for the existence of God. Since I doubt anyone will say that the actions of Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer are not truly evil then I say the following makes a good argument. What are your opinions?

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
2.Evil Exists.
3.Therefore, objective moral values exist (some things are truly evil).
4.Therefore, God exists.

I would reply by asking what behavior is evil and why such behavior is considered evil. Those two rules above can be the base of a very effective moral system which does not need divine fiat to be established and maintained.

My definition of evil is behavior which breaks the following basic moral rules; the golden rule and first do no harm. However for Christians, especially Muslims the definition what is evil behavior is very different, in Islam it is basically anything Allah has declared haram or not allowed.

(August 17, 2010 at 10:52 pm)rybak303 Wrote: Hi, yes I do read all these replies. I have been searching as to which side on the debate between atheists and theists (mostly Christian) have the best case. So after reading books from both atheists and theists I wrote down questions that both sides brought up and have been sending them to a couple of Christian and Atheist forums. I am just curious to see how good the answers are that each side comes up with.

And what about your own thoughts on these matters...?