One very ancient cosmogony put forth the notion that the skies were like a tent that the deities "stretched" out over the earth. So, even if the Qur'an is translated to read "expanded," I don't see anything particularly original there, and certainly nothing that is "scientific."

It feels like a parent pointing out something that vaguely resembles a flower in their 3 year old child's painting disaster.

It's cosmic telephone.

Thanks for all your interest everyone. Makes me want to write loads more - and I will. I have several other discussions planned which I want to post to the forum at some point because I really want people to be informed.

(February 24, 2015 at 7:37 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I'm re-reading Robert Spencer's "Did Mohammed Exist" right now and in chapter 9 he is discussing how the earliest versions of the koran had similar problems.

Apparently, just like all religious horseshit, it says whatever the powers that be want it to say.

Initially I dismissed Robert's book but I think I may get it. It seems the notion that Muhammad didn't actually exist is gaining some credibility. I'm not terribly keen on Robert Spencer because he perpetuates the "us and them mentality" which so many Muhammadans also tout.

(February 25, 2015 at 5:39 am)Exian Wrote: Sounds like some rewrites to me. Pretty soon we'll see "Mohammed didn't punch the moon in half, but it'd be cool if he did!"

People are already claiming that he did actually split Earth's moon and apparently the Chinese saw it or something. A quick YouTube search should suffice. However, I want to draw your attention to this Facebook post. DawahMan is well known in certain circles. Note that even some of his followers are saying he is crazy for claiming what he is claiming in that Facebook post.

(February 25, 2015 at 5:42 am)robvalue Wrote: Actually, the word "metaphorically" might start making frequent appearances.

The problem with them trying to pull this kind of stunt is that we're in the internet age, and people are going to see very quickly that the perfect word of god has been altered. You can't just get away with it like you could when it was written on the back of fag packets or whatever.

Yes, they love the word metaphorically. After Hamza Tzortis had his disastrous discussion with P. Z. Myers in Dublin he now claims the verses relating to embryology in the Quran are no longer 'miraculous' and are instead "symbolic in their meaning"*. Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument in my opinion. He's trying to salvage a rubbish argument for damage limitation so that he doesn't loose as many of his lackeys as he would otherwise loose - and, therefore, his source of income.

*Since linking the video automatically makes it display when I want only a hypertext link: Search on YouTube: "Mind blowing Evidence Islam Is The Truth From God - New 2015 - Hamza Tzortzis" and skip to 22:42 in the video where he begins talking about the embryology verses. Earlier in the video he claims hieroglyphics where not deciphered until the "late 20th century" which is clearly erroneous.

Interestingly, I was curious so I looked up one of the previously 'miraculous' verses, Quran 23:14. We see the same circumstance as Quran 51:47. Let's juxtapose some newer translations with some older ones. Do we have another case of dishonest translation of the Quran? I think so. What about you?

I am using the same five translations I used when discussing Quran 51:47. The dates for all these translations (i.e. the dates when the translations were first published) can be found in my initial post to this topic.

Arberry (older)
then We created of the drop a clot then We created of the clot a tissue then We created of the tissue bones then We garmented the bones in flesh; thereafter We produced him as another creature. So blessed be God, the fairest of creators!

Pickthall (older)
Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!

Sahih Intl (newer; note the word sperm being forced into the verse)
Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah, the best of creators.

Talal Itani (newer)
Then We developed the seed into a clot. Then We developed the clot into a lump. Then We developed the lump into bones. Then We clothed the bones with flesh. Then We produced it into another creature. Most Blessed is God, the Best of Creators.

Yusuf Ali (older)
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

(February 25, 2015 at 9:55 am)Nestor Wrote: One very ancient cosmogony put forth the notion that the skies were like a tent that the deities "stretched" out over the earth. So, even if the Qur'an is translated to read "expanded," I don't see anything particularly original there, and certainly nothing that is "scientific."

But people will try to make something of even the most mundane of verses. There are loads of websites spouting rubbish. You've got so called 'scholars' who say that human embryos develop bones BEFORE flesh. They care more about the beliefs, and filling their pockets with money from their lackeys it seems, than what it true. They do not want to change their beliefs to fit what is true.