(March 24, 2015 at 6:18 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: I don't believe I am familiar with his position.

So look it up in the countless threads. It's something to puke over. I won't recap, since I might make some mistakes from the top of my head, but the reality should speak for itself.

This issue has been brought up numerous times but I'll reiterate anyway: it's strange why would God even need worship from anyone? People are basically social animals whose psychology is built in such a way that they have self-appraisal, they need approval, worship, feeling of supremacy and other feelings that have to do with their place in social life. These behavioristic pattens are basically coded in human DNA. God, on the other hand, is implied to be alone. He is also implied to be superior to humans in all aspects. He has nothing to proove to anybody. To say it straight, aformentioned concepts are logically foreign to him. But the myth tells us that God is not a completely alien entity. He shares at least some similiarities with humans. This means that he may share said patterns, too. So if he's completely alone but has these patterns he must be some sort of 'Mowgly' in terms of psychology. All this makes completely no sence outside of the myth but still.

While in the Bible he actively demands attention from his creation in such a way that there are only two logical conclusions: he plays a game to entertain himself or he has some psyhological issues. Both ways imply that he had been aware of aformentioned concepts from the beginning which leads to a conclusion that he's not alone and there are other gods.

Such is a way of reasoning if you reason from within the myth. On the other hand, it's a well-known conclusion that people make gods in their image.

(March 24, 2015 at 6:00 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: I would argue that if you were a God, you'd have a right to be narcissistic.

But I'm not a god and I don't claim to be one. And if I was, I sure wouldn't be narcissistic about it. I doubt you even know what narcissism really is. Anyone can read about it but actually dealing with a person who has it and is malicious about it, is an entirely different thing.

I started this thread based upon who and what I have dealt with in my personal life. I feel I'm spot on with my assessment and the similarities between the two. The comparisons made are as accurate as I see them. You can argue away all you like. You will never convince me that your god and a narcissist are different from one another.

You might as well give up right now.

Huggy74 Wrote:If this was true he wouldn't of given us free will. We ask the question of why evil exists, the truth is, if everyone loved their neighbor, evil wouldn't exist, If everyone had love for one another, starving kids wouldn't exist. You can clearly see that the problem lies not with God but with man.

Get off the free will crap. No... the only way the problem lies with man is man's mistake in believing a magical creature placed us all here in the first place.

If god really did put us all here, then he's got the means and the ability to make sure no one starves, gets sick or suffers in any other way possible. He'd have the means and the ability to speak to each of us DIRECTLY and teach us about right and wrong without having to rely on questionable stories from a book written by man, totally dependent on yet more humans to translate and relay those words to others.

Huggy74 Wrote:If you could create a universe, I'd put you on a pedestal too, because..I don't know...I owe my existence to you?.

Prove he actually was responsible for creating the universe.
Oh and using the bible doesn't count as a proper reference since it's a work of fiction.

Huggy74 Wrote:Strange how this "abusive" God let you get away with this post without being stuck down.

Yeah.. about that... can't strike me down if you don't exist. Duh.

Huggy74 Wrote:I realize you're new, but the slavery thing has been discussed to death.

Yeah so has every single point you've ever tried to make. I don't need years on this forum to know that. Your circular arguments are obvious.

Huggy74 Wrote:Claiming people serve God because they are afraid of Hell is like saying people don't commit murder because they are afraid of the death penalty.

That depends on which god you are talking about. If you are talking about a loving god, one who keeps the peace, puts an end to suffering, sickness and starvation, then no, I suppose he shouldn't be feared. But if you are talking about the god of your bible, you know, the one who performed mass genocide, constantly threatens his "people" that in order to get to the pearly white gates, they must obey him, otherwise they suffer eternal damnation in hell. That's the one I'm talking about.

And yeah, I don't commit murder because I AM afraid of the death penalty. That and I obey the laws because Prison Orange isn't my color. I have a list of five people who I would happily off right now if I knew that I could get away with it. So your argument is invalid.

Huggy74 Wrote:Either your a murder or your not, the penalty for murder doesn't factor in the decision.

It's You're not your. Your implies ownership. You're means You Are. I am not a murder. Murder is an action word. I'm not an action word, last time I checked. And yes, to many people the penalty for murder WOULD most certainly factor in the decision. Especially one that is well thought out and executed (pardon the pun).

Huggy74 Wrote:You serve God out of love not fear. You cannot mentally conceive how horrific hell is. It makes no sense for you to fear something you have no concept for.

One - I don't serve any god. Period.
Two - I very well CAN mentally conceive how horrific it might be. I don't have to believe in hell to do this. When you read a work of fiction, as you are reading, you mentally conceive what the characters look like, what their surroundings look like, what they are doing looks like. Imagination is wonderful that way. Do not assume to know what my thoughts are.

Huggy74 Wrote:A literal burning hell would be like Disneyland compared to what hell is actually like.

Wait... so now YOU are telling me HOW horrific hell actually is?
Didn't you JUST SAY not more than two sentences ago, in the same damn paragraph that I cannot mentally conceive how horrific hell is? So how is it that you can but I can't?
I guess you can tell me what hell is actually like because you speak from experience? Or did you just mentally conceive how horrific it is in order to come off as a smart guy?

---

(March 24, 2015 at 6:18 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: I realize that, so why waste time posting nonsense?

I'd like to see a show of hands from those here who think my OP is most certainly NOT nonsense.

Are we not on an Atheist forum? Am I not posting something worthy of discussion?

(March 24, 2015 at 6:49 pm)Smaug Wrote: This issue has been brought up numerous times but I'll reiterate anyway: it's strange why would God even need worship from anyone?
...
Such is a way of reasoning if you reason from within the myth. On the other hand, it's a well-known conclusion that people make gods in their image.

Indeed. As I've often thought, if Christians made their god instead of the other way around, there would be nothing to explain. The parallels between the demands of this god and the needs of the clergy are not coincidence but by design. The practitioners of priestcraft need more followers who question their authority less, and so their god conveniently judges us on our willingness to follow them and believe what they tell us without question (a.k.a. "faith").

On the other hand, if Christianity is true, we have the paradox of an insecure narcissist who needs the validation of mortal sycophants and yet, instead of making appearances to bask in their fawning, behavior the OP would predict of such an angry, demanding god, shyly hides off stage. If the Christian god were real, his (and the Christian god is most certainly a "he", complete with impressive genitalia according to the Book of Ezekiel), then his behavior makes no sense.

The OP should also consider the psychological condition that would explain the crippling shyness and deep insecurity that goes into needing the adoration of such comparatively insignificant beings. Their god is a powerful, world-creating being that needs a hug.

Touching, in a strange way.

One explanation, offered by Muslims but some Christians as well, is that life is a "test", one in which their god is staying his hand to see how we will behave. If this is true, and it would be the only logical explanation I can think of, than we must ask what exactly is being tested. If salvation is by faith, than gullibility is the trait being evaluated.

Perhaps their god is seeking more sycophants to occupy his celestial palace but one wonders just how many any god needs. Even Louis XIV would have stopped after acquiring a thousand or so.

Perhaps the test runs in the opposite direction then. Maybe critical thinking is what is being evaluated. Perhaps God only has so much room in Heaven and needs only the best and brightest minds to compete with a nearby Creation. This scenario, while offered in jest, seems far more compelling than the celestial-Versailles-of-billions.

Perhaps when God calls for pencils to be put down and booklets turned in, we will find it is we who passed the test, being unwilling to believe nonsense even under great social pressure and having the integrity to evaluate morality for ourselves instead of going with a simplistic (and frankly amoral) punishment/reward system from on-high.

In advance, let me say "no thanks" to 72 virgins (perpetual virgins, no less, which would be my idea of Hell). I prefer experienced applicants to my extended family of three bisexual wives and one bisexual husband.

Yep, Jehovah is an image of an ancient culture that valued narcissism. Jesus, to an extent, may have also been a narcissist or something of the sort.

(March 24, 2015 at 7:32 pm)Irrational Wrote: Yep, Jehovah is an image of an ancient culture that valued narcissism. Jesus, to an extent, may have also been a narcissist or something of the sort.

Or the authors were.

The Gospel of John reads like a badly written "Marty-Stu" fan fiction.

(March 24, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: But I'm not a god and I don't claim to be one. And if I was, I sure wouldn't be narcissistic about it. I doubt you even know what narcissism really is. Anyone can read about it but actually dealing with a person who has it and is malicious about it, is an entirely different thing.

I started this thread based upon who and what I have dealt with in my personal life. I feel I'm spot on with my assessment and the similarities between the two. The comparisons made are as accurate as I see them. You can argue away all you like. You will never convince me that your god and a narcissist are different from one another.

You might as well give up right now.

So you define God based on who and what you've had to deal with in your personal life? So the universe revolves around Judi? pretty narcissistic, no?

Make no mistake, i have no interest of trying to convince you of anything...

(March 24, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Get off the free will crap. No... the only way the problem lies with man is man's mistake in believing a magical creature placed us all here in the first place.

If god really did put us all here, then he's got the means and the ability to make sure no one starves, gets sick or suffers in any other way possible

Quote:Revelation 21
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

(March 24, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: He'd have the means and the ability to speak to each of us

God at one time DID speak to people, he gathered the Hebrews to mount Sinai and spoke audibly to them, but it terrified them so bad that from then on he only spoke to the people through a prophet. So if anyone claims that God spoke audibly to them, know that they are lying.

(March 24, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Prove he actually was responsible for creating the universe.
Oh and using the bible doesn't count as a proper reference since it's a work of fiction.

I didn't bring God up sweetheart, you did. This whole conversation is predicated on the fact that God exists. YOU can't start a discussion about God, and then claim he doesn't exist. I already get that you dont believe in God, were simply discussing a scenario (hypothetical in your case) where he does exist.
You starting the discussion about God,then announcing you don't believe in God, is what YOU call a circular argument.

(March 24, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Yeah.. about that... can't strike me down if you don't exist. Duh.

See above paragraph...

(March 24, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Yeah so has every single point you've ever tried to make. I don't need years on this forum to know that. Your circular arguments are obvious.

Years? you haven't been here a week, and apparently you already know every single point I've tried to make.
You must be a real delight.

(March 24, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: And yeah, I don't commit murder because I AM afraid of the death penalty. That and I obey the laws because Prison Orange isn't my color. I have a list of five people who I would happily off right now if I knew that I could get away with it. So your argument is invalid.

Hmmm, thought you didn't murder because you were a "moral" person... Hey, at least you're honest.

(March 24, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: It's You're not your. Your implies ownership. You're means You Are. I am not a murder. Murder is an action word. I'm not an action word, last time I checked. And yes, to many people the penalty for murder WOULD most certainly factor in the decision. Especially one that is well thought out and executed (pardon the pun).

I'm aware of the difference between "your" and "you're" sweetheart, it's not the first time I've had a typo in my post and it won't be the last.

(March 24, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: One - I don't serve any god. Period.
Two - I very well CAN mentally conceive how horrific it might be. I don't have to believe in hell to do this. When you read a work of fiction, as you are reading, you mentally conceive what the characters look like, what their surroundings look like, what they are doing looks like. Imagination is wonderful that way. Do not assume to know what my thoughts are.

First of all, I was speaking generally.
Secondly, can guarantee your imaginings of Hell are way off.

(March 24, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Wait... so now YOU are telling me HOW horrific hell actually is?
Didn't you JUST SAY not more than two sentences ago, in the same damn paragraph that I cannot mentally conceive how horrific hell is? So how is it that you can but I can't?
I guess you can tell me what hell is actually like because you speak from experience? Or did you just mentally conceive how horrific it is in order to come off as a smart guy?

Nope, I'm telling what hell is not, big difference.
I have no clue how big the universe is, but i'll tell you what it's not....small.

---

(March 24, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: I'd like to see a show of hands from those here who think my OP is most certainly NOT nonsense.

Are we not on an Atheist forum? Am I not posting something worthy of discussion?

You start a discussion about God, and when someone engages with you, you announce you don't believe in God, making the OP nonsense...

(March 24, 2015 at 8:13 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: So you define God based on who and what you've had to deal with in your personal life? So the universe revolves around Judi? pretty narcissistic, no?

No you idiot. I was referring to my experiences with a narcissist and you fucking knew that from prior posts. The universe doesn't revolve around me. Where the fuck did I ever say that it did? Just because someone has experiences and expands on them does not mean that they now think the universe revolves around themselves. That is just stupid. I don't know where the hell you get this from.
Again you will twist anything to suit your own agenda. I am done talking to you or responding to anything else you have to say here.

Didn't even bother reading the rest of what you wrote after this bullshit.

(March 24, 2015 at 8:22 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 8:13 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: So you define God based on who and what you've had to deal with in your personal life? So the universe revolves around Judi? pretty narcissistic, no?

No you idiot. I was referring to my experiences with a narcissist and you fucking knew that from prior posts. The universe doesn't revolve around me. Where the fuck did I ever say that it did? Just because someone has experiences and expands on them does not mean that they now think the universe revolves around themselves. That is just stupid. I don't know where the hell you get this from.
Again you will twist anything to suit your own agenda. I am done talking to you or responding to anything else you have to say here.

Didn't even bother reading the rest of what you wrote after this bullshit.

Oh don't worry, I have no desire to have a discussion with people who talk out of both sides of their mouth.

(March 23, 2015 at 7:47 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Law and order has betrayed me several times over. Even so, I still hold onto my morals because I would rather do what is right and set a good example for my children, despite the wrong that was done to me.

As for whether or not I would remain I would remain moral - if you are asking whether or not I would kill someone for my own survival, I can't honestly answer that. I have never killed anyone and don't know what that feels like.

I suppose if it meant shoving one of my children out of harms way and bearing the brunt of that harm, possibly getting killed in the process, then I don't believe I would be compromising my morals because I would be trying to protect my child. And I would do whatever was necessary achieve that.

All in all, it depends on the scenario. If my children were somewhere safe and all I had to do was worry about myself, I probably would die. Killing just doesn't seem to be an option.

(March 23, 2015 at 7:47 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: And yeah, I don't commit murder because I AM afraid of the death penalty. That and I obey the laws because Prison Orange isn't my color. I have a list of five people who I would happily off right now if I knew that I could get away with it. So your argument is invalid.

*Emboldened by me
So which is it? do you not commit murder because of your morals? Or because you're afraid to get caught?

I've made the effort to be nice to you, but the gloves are off from now on.
Like I said before, you sound like a real delight.

(March 24, 2015 at 6:00 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(March 24, 2015 at 2:24 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: A Narcissist does the sort of shit god does, only on a lesser scale. And both the narcissist and the xian god have punishments for those who don't comply. Let's compare the similarities between a narcissist and god:

I would argue that if you were a God, you'd have a right to be narcissistic.

A right, sure. Just like I have a right to be an asshole. If I exercise that right though, I shouldn't expect people to invite me to their parties.

This is why church attendance is plummeting, young people are rejecting religion and why secularism is soaring. God is an asshole.