(March 25, 2015 at 6:46 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: If you don't want to discuss the subject of God, then don't bring it up.
That's all.

You know, in the real world we mostly don't. Around here we can vent about the stupid shit we heard from one of you christers at work (or on tv or at the mall or street preaching or...). We get pounded by christer beliefs daily yet on the rare occasion we mention it to someone in position to stop it (when it's in an inappropriate place, like at work), we're usually shut down.

Then we get ass-clowns like you coming here and complaining about what we choose to discuss. Don't like what you read here, don't come here. You won't find me on a christer board and I won't miss you if you leave.

We have to move ourselves into fantasy land so we can discuss the mindset of the majority of the human race.

Once adults stop acting like kids harping on that Santa is real, it will no longer be necessary.

(March 27, 2015 at 11:58 pm)Starvald Demelain Wrote: We could do dueling bible verses if you like, same book too;

Job 12:10- In his hand is the life of every creature, and the breath of all mankind.

Free will indeed, and if you don't utilize that free will in the way he sees fit he only sends you to a torturous plane of existence for all of eternity.

I going to assume you live in a free society.
In a free society you still have laws, you are free to do as you please as long as you don't transgress the law.

God has decreed that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die"

How do you know if you're a criminal? By breaking the law.
How do you know you're a sinner? By breaking God's law.
The penalty for sin is death (eternal separation from God), Total annihilation.

(March 27, 2015 at 11:58 pm)Starvald Demelain Wrote: Who has the most culpability in this, Huggy, the mortals or the all powerful, omniscient, deity? In a given situation I'm far angrier with a good man who chose to do nothing, when he could have stopped evil, than the one who committed it; and even this little hypothetical fails to fully address a deity's failings.

Let's say God = the Sun
Everyone takes the Sun for granted, It's the most awesome object in our solar system, yet many don't give it a second thought. Although the Sun is shinning, guess what? Half the world is still covered in darkness. Imagine If the sun was to stop shining, what then? Likewise if God were to remove his presence from the earth (he eventually will) then the earth will be overrun with chaos, which is referred to as the "great tribulation.

Quote:Matthew 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

(March 24, 2015 at 6:00 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: If you could create a universe, I'd put you on a pedestal too, because..I don't know...I owe my existence to you?. Also the sacrifices are for YOUR benefit, not his.

(March 27, 2015 at 11:58 pm)Starvald Demelain Wrote: So if you found out that the world was actually created by Shai'tan (the Great Lord of the Dark from The Wheel of Time series) you'd worship him because he created you? You would have no mind for merit? No judgement for atrocities? Fuck that mindset man.

As for sacrifice; don't you think a benevolent all powerful deity would just have the capacity for bare forgiveness?

God is bound by his word, as I mention earlier "the soul that sinneth it shall die". God HAS to keep his word.

Death is the penalty for sin, but YOU don't have to die if something takes your place. Which is why one took a lamb and sacrificed it in their place, which was only a temporary fix because he is still a sinner, he still had the same desire to sin.

A pig loves being a pig, he likes to wallow in the mud. If you take it out of the mud and wash it, it will return to the mud, because he has the nature of a pig. Likewise a sheep has no desire to wallow in the mud, it likes to hang out in green pastures. If you want the pig to stay clean, you must change it's nature from a pig, to the nature of a sheep.

Sacrificing an animal for your sin, covered the sin but did not change your nature. The Blood of Jesus Christ has the power to change your nature so that you no longer have the desire to sin, which is why it's called being born again, you are a new creation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
He didn't have to do it, but he did so that we may have eternal life.

That is why we worship him.

(March 27, 2015 at 11:58 pm)Starvald Demelain Wrote: Strange how this "benevolent" deity you worship will send a good person to an eternal pit of torture for no more reason than not accepting dubious claims.

There is no one that's "good" everyone has broken God's law.
Have you ever lied? Guilty
have you ever stolen? Guilty
Premarital sex? Guilty
Disrespected your parents? Guilty
I could go on, but you get the point. The only exception being those that didn't know. You however are with out excuse, you made the choice not to accept the way of escape.

(March 27, 2015 at 11:58 pm)Starvald Demelain Wrote: So you're claiming that there are no people that take out "fire insurance"? Please. A show of hands, my fellow non-Christians, as to how many of you have seen Pascal's Wager trotted out as if it were the Christian's secret weapon? That's nothing but a tactic to induce doubt and fear in the hopes of conversion, and people have fallen for it since it's conception.

If a man only faithful to his wife because he is afraid she'll divorce him, is probably married for the wrong reasons. He should be faithful to his wife because he loves her, not because he's afraid the consequences.

(March 24, 2015 at 6:00 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: You serve God out of love not fear. You cannot mentally conceive how horrific hell is. It makes no sense for you to fear something you have no concept for. A literal burning hell would be like Disneyland compared to what hell is actually like.

You're either woefully unimaginative, or you're just being a disingenuous tit. Honestly now.

(March 27, 2015 at 11:58 pm)Starvald Demelain Wrote: Always love this statement. Pray tell, how on earth does an omniscient being not intend to do something? They know what's going to happen.

The devil is going to hell no matter what, MAN doesn't have to go there, God provided every man a way to escape hell.
Bridges weren't intended for people to commit suicide from, but guess what? People jump make the conscious decision to off of bridges all the time, the same way people end up in hell by not taking the prescribed way out.

---

(March 28, 2015 at 12:02 am)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote:

(March 25, 2015 at 6:46 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: If you don't want to discuss the subject of God, then don't bring it up.
That's all.

You know, in the real world we mostly don't. Around here we can vent about the stupid shit we heard from one of you christers at work (or on tv or at the mall or street preaching or...). We get pounded by christer beliefs daily yet on the rare occasion we mention it to someone in position to stop it (when it's in an inappropriate place, like at work), we're usually shut down.

Then we get ass-clowns like you coming here and complaining about what we choose to discuss. Don't like what you read here, don't come here. You won't find me on a christer board and I won't miss you if you leave.

let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.

Atheist: God is evil!
Christian: God isn't evil.. (gives reason)
Atheist: God doesn't exist!

Surely you can see how asinine that conversation is....

(March 28, 2015 at 4:04 am)Huggy74 Wrote: let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.

Atheist: God is evil!
Christian: God isn't evil.. (gives reason)
Atheist: God doesn't exist!

Surely you can see how asinine that conversation is....

Yes, I see that. But not for the reasons given.

Let me revisit the great reasons you gave right at the start, which amounted to: god is great and is allowed to get away with everything. That's how a child would reason. And going by your own post record, it's probably best to treat you as such.

(March 28, 2015 at 4:04 am)Huggy74 Wrote: I going to assume you live in a free society.
In a free society you still have laws, you are free to do as you please as long as you don't transgress the law.

God has decreed that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die"

How do you know if you're a criminal? By breaking the law.
How do you know you're a sinner? By breaking God's law.
The penalty for sin is death (eternal separation from God), Total annihilation.

♪ One of these things isn't quite like the other ♪
Yes, you know that you're a criminal by breaking laws; man made laws that have clear backing from governments, with demonstrable consequences. You've got what every other religion has, unfalsifiable claims of "this is what god says" with absolutely no backing.

Not to mention that this is kind of beyond the point of where we're at as far as Christianity is concerned:

You either accept what the bible says on faith and accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, or you go to hell. Y'know, cos he loves you.

(March 28, 2015 at 4:04 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Let's say God = the Sun
Everyone takes the Sun for granted, It's the most awesome object in our solar system, yet many don't give it a second thought. Although the Sun is shinning, guess what? Half the world is still covered in darkness. Imagine If the sun was to stop shining, what then? Likewise if God were to remove his presence from the earth (he eventually will) then the earth will be overrun with chaos, which is referred to as the "great tribulation.

So you're saying that god's actually doing something because he's behind the good in the world? That's a highly convenient argument since that gives him the credit for literally every good work/happenstance that comes along while not requiring any kind of backing, save for bare assertion.

Here's the thing, even if we give that, and Christianity in general, the benefit of the doubt, he's still responsible for every ill thing that's ever been or ever will be. He chose to create the circumstances that humanity is in; which, if you think about it, is a completely unacceptable standard that people should expect from a self-described infallible being with limitless potential.

(March 28, 2015 at 4:04 am)Huggy74 Wrote: God is bound by his word, as I mention earlier "the soul that sinneth it shall die". God HAS to keep his word.

Death is the penalty for sin, but YOU don't have to die if something takes your place. Which is why one took a lamb and sacrificed it in their place, which was only a temporary fix because he is still a sinner, he still had the same desire to sin.

A pig loves being a pig, he likes to wallow in the mud. If you take it out of the mud and wash it, it will return to the mud, because he has the nature of a pig. Likewise a sheep has no desire to wallow in the mud, it likes to hang out in green pastures. If you want the pig to stay clean, you must change it's nature from a pig, to the nature of a sheep.

Sacrificing an animal for your sin, covered the sin but did not change your nature. The Blood of Jesus Christ has the power to change your nature so that you no longer have the desire to sin, which is why it's called being born again, you are a new creation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
He didn't have to do it, but he did so that we may have eternal life.

That is why we worship him.

Paradox aside for the moment, let's say god is bound by his word:
What, a deity can't forgive humanity without bloodshed that no decent person would accept on their behalf in the first place? Let's put the barbaric Jewish scapegoating aside for a moment, and in it's place let's just say god decided to go another route:

"...the soul that sinneth shall die. But if he's actually sorry we're cool-eth, and if he's not then he gets chewed out something fierce, punished for a deserving amount of time, and sent on his merry way because finite sin doesn't deserve infinite punishment no matter what."

Even Hitler deserves a break after a few hundred lifetimes of punishment man. At some point you say "mercy", and that's why I wouldn't worship a deity who wouldn't (if I thought he existed).

(March 28, 2015 at 4:04 am)Huggy74 Wrote: There is no one that's "good" everyone has broken God's law.
Have you ever lied? Guilty
have you ever stolen? Guilty
Premarital sex? Guilty
Disrespected your parents? Guilty
I could go on, but you get the point. The only exception being those that didn't know. You however are with out excuse, you made the choice not to accept the way of escape.

(March 28, 2015 at 4:04 am)Huggy74 Wrote: If a man only faithful to his wife because he is afraid she'll divorce him, is probably married for the wrong reasons. He should be faithful to his wife because he loves her, not because he's afraid the consequences.

I didn't say it was for the "right" reasons, but it does happen.

(March 28, 2015 at 4:04 am)Huggy74 Wrote: The devil is going to hell no matter what, MAN doesn't have to go there, God provided every man a way to escape hell.
Bridges weren't intended for people to commit suicide from, but guess what? People jump make the conscious decision to off of bridges all the time, the same way people end up in hell by not taking the prescribed way out.

*emboldened by me*

Except for those that don't accept claims with no verifiable evidence.
Believe it or not, Huggy, there are atheists who have sought "the truth" as presented by the religious earnestly who have experienced, and felt, absolutely nothing.

And this is why I compare god to a narcissist. ^^^

Bottom line, there is no reason to think your god exists, but if he did, your assumption that he would deserve/I would give him my worship is 100% wrong. Your god as described is not even as good as a reasonably decent person, let alone such an awesome entity that I'd grovel for him like a slave. No, I would in fact consider your deity to be deserving of a giant kick in the nads. Should your evil sky daddy actually exist, I would consider it my moral duty to oppose the genocidal psychopath.

(March 28, 2015 at 11:56 am)Desert Diva Wrote: Bottom line, there is no reason to think your god exists, but if he did, your assumption that he would deserve/I would give him my worship is 100% wrong. Your god as described is not even as good as a reasonably decent person, let alone such an awesome entity that I'd grovel for him like a slave. No, I would in fact consider your deity to be deserving of a giant kick in the nads. Should your evil sky daddy actually exist, I would consider it my moral duty to oppose the genocidal psychopath.

It would seem you guys tend to play fast and loose with your morals, becoming moral or immoral whenever it suits your argument.

(March 23, 2015 at 7:47 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Law and order has betrayed me several times over. Even so, I still hold onto my morals because I would rather do what is right and set a good example for my children, despite the wrong that was done to me.

As for whether or not I would remain I would remain moral - if you are asking whether or not I would kill someone for my own survival, I can't honestly answer that. I have never killed anyone and don't know what that feels like.

I suppose if it meant shoving one of my children out of harms way and bearing the brunt of that harm, possibly getting killed in the process, then I don't believe I would be compromising my morals because I would be trying to protect my child. And I would do whatever was necessary achieve that.

All in all, it depends on the scenario. If my children were somewhere safe and all I had to do was worry about myself, I probably would die. Killing just doesn't seem to be an option.

(March 23, 2015 at 7:47 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: And yeah, I don't commit murder because I AM afraid of the death penalty. That and I obey the laws because Prison Orange isn't my color. I have a list of five people who I would happily off right now if I knew that I could get away with it. So your argument is invalid.

*emboldened by me

(March 28, 2015 at 4:04 am)Huggy74 Wrote: let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.

Atheist: God is evil!
Christian: God isn't evil.. (gives reason)
Atheist: God doesn't exist!

Surely you can see how asinine that conversation is....

Let me give you an example of how it really goes down...
Atheist 1: That Voldemort fellow is quite the bastard isn't he.
Atheist 2: Yep. He's a real ass. So are the Malfoy's.
Atheist 1: Yeah, but Voldemort's the worst.
Christer: Guys, the Voldemort that I know in my heart and love is nothing like the one depicted in the book.
Atheist 1: Ehrmmm... You know he's not real, right?

We're (almost) always surprised when someone comes in here not understanding that we talk about gawd the same way we talk about Voldemort, Darth Vader, or any other fictional villain and our reaction is (almost) always going to be "You know it's not real, right?" Something you seem to forget, Huggies, is that we use a lot of informal shorthand here. I understand that when Judi (for example) calls gawd an asshole that she's not speaking of a real thing.

Here, I'll detail it out for you:
What Judi says: Gawds a right twat!
What I (and most here) hear: The gawd described in the buy-bull is a right twat.

You simply don't get the unspoken part because you're not a part of the atheist community, despite being a member of an atheist board. You go on and on about context, then forget (or ignore) the over-arching context here.

I would never presume to go to a theist board and tell them how to converse. Please show the same courtesy here.

And yes, gawd is a right twat!

(March 28, 2015 at 3:20 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(March 28, 2015 at 11:56 am)Desert Diva Wrote: Bottom line, there is no reason to think your god exists, but if he did, your assumption that he would deserve/I would give him my worship is 100% wrong. Your god as described is not even as good as a reasonably decent person, let alone such an awesome entity that I'd grovel for him like a slave. No, I would in fact consider your deity to be deserving of a giant kick in the nads. Should your evil sky daddy actually exist, I would consider it my moral duty to oppose the genocidal psychopath.

It would seem you guys tend to play fast and loose with your morals, becoming moral or immoral whenever it suits your argument.

(March 23, 2015 at 7:47 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Law and order has betrayed me several times over. Even so, I still hold onto my morals because I would rather do what is right and set a good example for my children, despite the wrong that was done to me.

As for whether or not I would remain I would remain moral - if you are asking whether or not I would kill someone for my own survival, I can't honestly answer that. I have never killed anyone and don't know what that feels like.

I suppose if it meant shoving one of my children out of harms way and bearing the brunt of that harm, possibly getting killed in the process, then I don't believe I would be compromising my morals because I would be trying to protect my child. And I would do whatever was necessary achieve that.

All in all, it depends on the scenario. If my children were somewhere safe and all I had to do was worry about myself, I probably would die. Killing just doesn't seem to be an option.

(March 23, 2015 at 7:47 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: And yeah, I don't commit murder because I AM afraid of the death penalty. That and I obey the laws because Prison Orange isn't my color. I have a list of five people who I would happily off right now if I knew that I could get away with it. So your argument is invalid.

*emboldened by me

You need a sky daddy to keep you from being a twat with threats and promises. I don't. Which of us lacks a solid moral compass, again?