(April 9, 2015 at 9:34 pm)datc Wrote: Or rather we should say: the fact that eternal life, if it is to be lived forever, must always be worth living (for otherwise, since in infinite time, all possibilities are realized, including that of suicide if it is at all possible), entails that the pleasures of heaven and paradise are infinite and in particular, both God and creation can never be exhausted; there will always be fun new things to experience or contemplate.

Enjoy your mythology.

Intelligence is relative

(April 9, 2015 at 9:30 pm)Iroscato Wrote: Dolphins and some apes are nearly as intelligent as humans. Some species of birds display aspects of intelligence and creativity equal or even exceeding that of human toddlers. Several species of ape including chimps and orang-utans are capable of learning sign language. Ravens are proven to be fantastic problem solvers. Many, many animals have primitive language systems. You need to read more books and do more research before you come on here spewing about stupidity, my friend.

Come back to me when "dolphins and some apes" decide to study humans and publish their results in scientific journals.

(April 9, 2015 at 9:17 pm)datc Wrote:

(April 9, 2015 at 5:20 pm)Jenny A Wrote: I see no reason to see the next life as a natural outcome of this one. The natural outcome of this life appears to be death and no more.

Alright then.

Suppose you are a young guy who just got his Bachelor's degree in, say, computer science. Your whole life is ahead of you, full of plan and prospects and excitement. You go to Florida to unwind from the stress of your studies and exams. It's all nice and restful, until one day you are swimming in the ocean, and everything seems irie, mon, and then a shark bites off your head. In your opinion, is that f***ing all?

Yes.

There is no evidence of anything else.

(April 9, 2015 at 9:37 pm)datc Wrote:

(April 9, 2015 at 9:30 pm)Iroscato Wrote: Dolphins and some apes are nearly as intelligent as humans. Some species of birds display aspects of intelligence and creativity equal or even exceeding that of human toddlers. Several species of ape including chimps and orang-utans are capable of learning sign language. Ravens are proven to be fantastic problem solvers. Many, many animals have primitive language systems. You need to read more books and do more research before you come on here spewing about stupidity, my friend.

Come back to me when "dolphins and some apes" decide to study humans and publish their results in scientific journals.

Give it a few hundred thousand to a few million years if our species wipes itself out, and we may indeed be studied by whatever succeeds us as the dominant species of the planet. We will be a fascinating subject, I'm sure, but in the end...just another footnote in the long and complicated history of the universe.
Man, if your ego was any bigger you'd crash the fucking forum.

(April 9, 2015 at 9:37 pm)datc Wrote: Come back to me when "dolphins and some apes" decide to study humans and publish their results in scientific journals.

I think it's supremely arrogant to believe that we are the pinnacle of 'creation'. We are a relatively new species, imagine what we could be like if he had been around as long as sharks. And imagine life on other planets. We are only as smart as we need to be, that's one of the ways evolution works. We aren't good with really small things, we can't actually imagine or conceive an atom. And we aren't really good with large things, we can't really imagine or conceive the size of our country, let alone our planet, let alone our solar system, let alone our galaxy, let alone our universe. Imagine a creature that could really comprehend the size of the universe.
I'll leave you with this: 
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” - Albert Einstein

(April 9, 2015 at 9:17 pm)datc Wrote:

(April 9, 2015 at 5:20 pm)Jenny A Wrote: I see no reason to see the next life as a natural outcome of this one. The natural outcome of this life appears to be death and no more.

Alright then.

Suppose you are a young guy who just got his Bachelor's degree in, say, computer science. Your whole life is ahead of you, full of plan and prospects and excitement. You go to Florida to unwind from the stress of your studies and exams. It's all nice and restful, until one day you are swimming in the ocean, and everything seems irie, mon, and then a shark bites off your head. In your opinion, is that f***ing all?

Unfortunately yes.  It is also an unfortunate fact that Mozart died at 33 years of age, Billy Holly's plane crashed, Kennedy was shot, thousands of children die of hunger and disease, earthquakes happen, floods happen, hurricanes happen.  So do epidemics.  And as Holly, Mozart, and Kenedy illustrate, death happens to those who are planning to do great things. There's plenty of evidence of untimely death.  What there isn't an evidence of is an afterlife, let alone that believing in an afterlife would make an afterlife more likely.

It would be nice if not believing in gravity made falls painless and always non-fatal, but the world doesn't appear to work that way. 

(April 9, 2015 at 9:44 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote:

(April 9, 2015 at 9:37 pm)datc Wrote: Come back to me when "dolphins and some apes" decide to study humans and publish their results in scientific journals.

I think it's supremely arrogant to believe that we are the pinnacle of 'creation'. We are a relatively new species, imagine what we could be like if he had been around as long as sharks. And imagine life on other planets. We are only as smart as we need to be, that's one of the ways evolution works. We aren't good with really small things, we can't actually imagine or conceive an atom. And we aren't really good with large things, we can't really imagine or conceive the size of our country, let alone our planet, let alone our solar system, let alone our galaxy, let alone our universe. Imagine a creature that could really comprehend the size of the universe.
I'll leave you with this: 
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” - Albert Einstein

Exactly this.
We as specimens are woefully inefficient in many ways as it is. We suffer back pain mainly because a bipedal stance is still relatively new and our biology hasn't quite caught up yet. We have redundant organs like the appendix, which at some point in our past may have helped in digesting tough materials, but now its only function is to occasionally try to murder the shit out of us at random points in our lives.
Come to think about it...Datc, what are your views on evolution...?

(April 9, 2015 at 9:35 pm)Sionnach Wrote:

(April 9, 2015 at 9:34 pm)datc Wrote: Or rather we should say: the fact that eternal life, if it is to be lived forever, must always be worth living (for otherwise, since in infinite time, all possibilities are realized, including that of suicide if it is at all possible), entails that the pleasures of heaven and paradise are infinite and in particular, both God and creation can never be exhausted; there will always be fun new things to experience or contemplate.

Enjoy your mythology.

It's not mythology but an argument.

1. If you don't desire to live forever now, then you have no reason to prepare yourself for eternal life.
2. Even if upon entering heaven or paradise and seeing for yourself what it's like, you change your mind, an unprepared person cannot remain there, as he has not proofed himself again suicide even after "8 trillion" years of existing there.
3. What your fate may be is anyone's guess; for example, you may be reincarnated again and again until you are so eager to live that even eternal life will be worth living while being yourself.
4. A considered and fully informed decision to die forever will likely be honored.
5. Then: If you definitely want to live forever, you can; and if you definitely want to die, you also can. These are mutually exclusive: an eternal life is forever; dying at any point means that life is not forever and so not eternal.
6. The former entails preparing yourself for it. For example, one thing you need to do is to cement your own personality, so that you are not ashamed of anything in yourself and can enjoy your life without guilt.
7. If there is no eternal life, yet you believe there is, then at the worst you'll become a morally good person.
8. If there is eternal life, yet you believe there is not, then you doom yourself (perhaps) to an endless and pointless cycle of disconnected "reincarnations."
9. Place your bet.

(April 9, 2015 at 10:03 pm)datc Wrote:

(April 9, 2015 at 9:35 pm)Sionnach Wrote: Enjoy your mythology.

It's not mythology but an argument.

1. If you don't desire to live forever now, then you have no reason to prepare yourself for eternal life.
2. Even if upon entering heaven or paradise and seeing for yourself what it's like, you change your mind, an unprepared person cannot remain there, as he has not proofed himself again suicide even after "8 trillion" years of existing there.
3. What your fate may be is anyone's guess; for example, you may be reincarnated again and again until you are so eager to live that even eternal life will be worth living while being yourself.
4. A considered and fully informed decision to die forever will likely be honored.
5. Then: If you definitely want to live forever, you can; and if you definitely want to die, you also can. These are mutually exclusive: an eternal life is forever; dying at any point means that life is not forever and so not eternal.
6. The former entails preparing yourself for it. For example, one thing you need to do is to cement your own personality, so that you are not ashamed of anything in yourself and can enjoy your life without guilt.
7. If there is no eternal life, yet you believe there is, then at the worst you'll become a morally good person.
8. If there is eternal life, yet you believe there is not, then you doom yourself (perhaps) to an endless and pointless cycle of disconnected "reincarnations."
9. Place your bet.

Easy: bet with the evidence.  There is no evidence of the woo you are selling.