Hey guys, I'm Catholic but I enjoy talking with people of other view points and I'm just looking to learn a little bit about some of your ideas so help me out if you would please.

I'm just looking to get some insights as to how most of you feel about free will and how exactly it fits into the materialist world view. If we are composed of nothing other than matter then doesn't that mean all that we are as humans is a bunch of chemicals and particles being governed by physical laws? Do we have no more control over ourselves then a rock does when falling down a hill, or a computer governed completely by our programming?

It seems like that is the only option if materialism is true, however it just doesn't seem like that explanation fits in with the universal experience of free will. I mean if an object is dropped it must necessarily fall to the ground because of gravity. But there is no physical law that makes it necessary for me to post on this forum, it seems like I freely chose to do it myself.

Any way if any one feels up to it please explain your thoughts on the topic for me. Thanks

(September 6, 2010 at 3:08 pm)Flobee Wrote: Hey guys, I'm Catholic

Hi. Are you a dirty one?

Flobee Wrote:but I enjoy talking with people of other view points and I'm just looking to learn a little bit about some of your ideas so help me out if you would please.

That's great. Just keep and open mind and don't turn troll. Kthnx.

Flobee Wrote:I'm just looking to get some insights as to how most of you feel about free will and how exactly it fits into the materialist world view.

Let me tell you a little secret. Most of us aren't satanists. I think you must have read the Satanist Bible, and in the introduction it does say satanism is very involved with materialism, but atheism (what most of us are) isn't.

Flobee Wrote:If we are composed of nothing other than matter then doesn't that mean all that we are as humans is a bunch of chemicals and particles being governed by physical laws?

Well, that really depends on what type of free will we are talking about. Are you talking about my ability to choose with colour I like best or how I'm affected by gravity without choice?

Flobee Wrote:It seems like that is the only option if materialism is true, however it just doesn't seem like that explanation fits in with the universal experience of free will. I mean if an object is dropped it must necessarily fall to the ground because of gravity. But there is no physical law that makes it necessary for me to post on this forum, it seems like I freely chose to do it myself.

And that's the difference. If you jump, you will fall. If you don't want to post on here, you don't have to. We are governed by physical laws to an extent. It's the same if you believe in God. It's not going to change the fact that gravity keeps you on Earth.

I was born catholic...


At the age of 20 I exercised my free will....decided those people were lunatics and have never looked back.

So yes. "Free Will" exists and should be used to free oneself from the criminal enterprise that is that church.

Another recovering Catholic here, I also left the church at age 20. Finally reached the inevitable and involuntary conclusion of atheism in my 40's. I'm 63 next month.

Free will? I don't know.I usually feel as if if I'm exercising free will in the choices I seem to make .

Looking back,I'm increasingly convinced that free will is almost if not entirely an illusion and that we virtually never make informed choices about anything.

Looking at the choices I've made over a lifetime, I'm convinced I was incapable of making any choices other than those I made.They were almost invariably based on perceived self interest. Many were wrong decisions, using that criterium. My view was reinforced a week ago,when I had an unpleasant experience ,and had what I now see as a grossly irrational over reaction.It was Pavlovian, I'm still suffering and feel ridiculous. (discussed ad nauseum in my off topic thread 'basket case rant')

My my view is a form of 'psychological determinism' and makes perfect sense to me on an intellectual level;philosophically, I'm also an egoist. On an emotional level,it makes no sense at all.My humanity ,sense of self and view of the world are based on the 'self evident truth' that I have free will .I. refuse to see myself as victim,hold myself responsible for my actions and others responsible for theirs.(including drunk/drugged-up drivers) If there is no free will,that is an invalid position. I also think any existence of an omniscient supreme being invalidates free will.

Quote:That's great. Just keep and open mind and don't turn troll. Kthnx.

Ok, you too.

Quote:Let me tell you a little secret. Most of us aren't satanists. I think you must have read the Satanist Bible, and in the introduction it does say satanism is very involved with materialism, but atheism (what most of us are) isn't.

I don't mean materialism as in worldly possessions if that's what you mean, I mean materialism as in naturalism or as in the belief that matter is all that there is in the universe. In this case I doubt satanists would be materialists because they believe in the spirit of satin.

Quote:Well, that really depends on what type of free will we are talking about. Are you talking about my ability to choose with colour I like best or how I'm affected by gravity without choice?

I'm talking about free will as in our ability to freely make decisions. We don't have any free choice when it comes to gravity.

Quote:And that's the difference. If you jump, you will fall. If you don't want to post on here, you don't have to. We are governed by physical laws to an extent. It's the same if you believe in God. It's not going to change the fact that gravity keeps you on Earth.

I think you misunderstood a little bit sorry if I wrote in a confusing way. What I'm asking I guess is if you all as atheists believe in free will as in free choice like the freedom of choice to choose to post on these forums or the freedom to choose a favorite color or whatever choice you can think of. Then my next question is that if you as an atheist believe in free will how exactly do you explain it since according to atheism the universe is composed completely of matter and in this view the human person is nothing more then a combination of chemicals and particles. I'm saying if all we are is chemicals then it doesn't seem possible that we could have free will.

So essentially the question is do you believe that human beings have free will in their choices and if so how do you explain such a phenomenon from an atheistic standpoint?

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Quote:Free will? I don't know.I usually feel as if if I'm exercising free will in the choices I seem to make .

Looking back,I'm increasingly convinced that free will is almost if not entirely an illusion and that we virtually never make informed choices about anything.

Looking at the choices I've made over a lifetime, I'm convinced I was incapable of making any choices other than those I made.

How exactly can you say that you are incapable of making other choices then you made? So if you choose to have a Pepsi over a Coke your saying it would have been impossible for you to choose the Coke? You had to Chose the Pepsi for some reason, it could never be different? If you say for example murder someone, your saying it would have been impossible to have done anything different? How exactly is that?

Quote:They were almost invariably based on perceived self interest.

That doesn't change the fact that they were free choices. I can freely choose to take the last cookie or I can freely choose to let my mom have it, self interest really doesn't do anything to effect the fact that we are free to choose.

Quote:I refuse to see myself as victim,

hold myself responsible for my actions and others responsible for theirs.(including drunk/drugged-up drivers) If there is no free will,that is an invalid position.[/quote]
I agree with you and that view is in perfect alignment with the kind of universe we live in and our experience of free will. However it is not in alignment with the world view of naturalism. We wouldn't hold a coke machine responsible if it shorted out and shot out cokes all over the place because it is simply the particles in the machine reacting. Now if there is no God and no Soul then we are no different from a machine with particles and chemicals shooting around causing us to do what we do and therefore we can't hold anyone responsible for their actions because they didn't chose them their actions are only the result of the chemicals in their body jostling around. To quote popular atheist Francis Crick "You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules."

Quote:I also think any existence of an omniscient supreme being invalidates free will.

How so?

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Quote:So yes. "Free Will" exists

As I quoted above Francis Crick and a great many other leading atheists seem to disagree with you about the existence of free will because they realize that to admit that we truly have free will is to admit that we are actually a person with an immaterial soul and not just a collection of molecules.

Flobee wrote:"Now if there is no God and no Soul then we are no different from a machine with particles and chemicals shooting around causing us to do what we do and therefore we can't hold anyone responsible for their actions because they didn't chose them their actions are only the result of the chemicals in their body jostling around."

How on Earth do you equate making choices and decisions freely and willingly with the existence of a God? I think you are confusing two entirely different subjects here: the existence of God and the existence of human consciousness. I think free will exist in the sense that I as an individual can make choices for good or bad for better or for worse regardless of the existence of a deity. In fact the bible in its most simplest form states that we have free will in that we can choose to serve God or serve our own self interest, but in my view that is not true free will because when you choose to serve God you have to literally turn over you free will to his will.

As an atheist my decisions are in no way influenced by superstitious beliefs in deities nor by religious institutions, I decide what I want to do with my life. If I choose to live my life as a drug addict, criminal, etc. then I must also be responsible enough to acknowledge that I might actually pay a very heavy price for choosing that particular path. God has nothing to do with the decisions I make I write my own history by the choices I make in life and reap either the benefits or the harm that I have incurred through my actions.

Quote:to admit that we truly have free will is to admit that we are actually a person with an immaterial soul

That strikes me as a non sequitur.


In the news today a man was arrested after leading police on a chase while driving a dump truck. Was that little exercise of "free will" due to the fact of an "immaterial soul" or due to the fact that he's an idiot?


I've frequently seen outlandish assertions...usually disguised as "philosophy." Meaningless.

(September 6, 2010 at 3:08 pm)Flobee Wrote: I'm just looking to get some insights as to how most of you feel about free will and how exactly it fits into the materialist world view.

We have free will to believe or not, but that free will is our own and not handed down by a god.

(September 6, 2010 at 3:08 pm)Flobee Wrote: If we are composed of nothing other than matter then doesn't that mean all that we are as humans is a bunch of chemicals and particles being governed by physical laws?

That's about right.

(September 6, 2010 at 3:08 pm)Flobee Wrote: Do we have no more control over ourselves then a rock does when falling down a hill, or a computer governed completely by our programming?

Well, you have your mind, of course. I would hope that means something to you. Rocks and computers aren't quite analogous to the human mind, or for that matter, any other intelligent species in the animal kingdom.

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(September 6, 2010 at 11:11 pm)Flobee Wrote: As I quoted above Francis Crick and a great many other leading atheists seem to disagree with you about the existence of free will because they realize that to admit that we truly have free will is to admit that we are actually a person with an immaterial soul and not just a collection of molecules.

Free will is not predicated on an immaterial soul, for to assume such would be a fallacy on your part. Extinguish the gods, and we have free will to act as we choose, as a thinking species: we can act within the framework of established law or we can act outside of established law. We can choose to do either as long as we don't care what the consequences may be. Each choice will have its consequences. Actually, if you follow Christian doctrine, free will is elusive and nonexistent altogether (I've made this point elsewhere on these forums, so just do a search).

@Flobee


You asked ,I answered, setting out my position. I'm terribly sorry ,but it's a matter of indifference to me if you agree or understand or not. My view is neither original nor unique. If you want to know more,Google is your friend.

You have some way to go before establishing any credibility with me.Until/unless that occurs,you're just another presuppositional apologist who has stumbled onto an atheist forum.

Such people argue from the presupposition of the existence of God,and are not willing to consider the possibility of error although they have no evidence for their position.IE in recorded history,the existence of god(s) has not been proved or falsified. That position makes them closed minded,and a waste of time. I have no interest in deconverting anyone;I really don't care about your personal superstitions.

One cannot use reason to discuss beliefs/views in which reason plays no part in forming or in maintaining.

I hope I'm wrong. I've been wrong about such a person here before ,once.

Quote: If you could reason with religious people, there wouldn't be any (Greg House)

Flobee, do you believe in free will? If you're wrong woe unto you, because then someday someone like me will wipe your pathetic fucking religion from the collective consciousness of the human race.