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Do you believe in free will?
RE: Do you believe in free will?

Different perspectives are always welcome. First, the mind creates a model of reality - the mind is what allows for things to exist in our model realities.[/quote]

No, the mind takes in sensory information, processes it, and then interprets it. The mind doesn't have anything to do with allowing things to exist. A rock doesn't need you to perceive it to exist either.
Quote: You are correct that one is not able to perceive their non-existence (though they may conceptualize). Non-existence is then real in so far as it is a concept which we have assigned certain (non)properties.

No, non-existence is a place card term for something that doesn't exist.. Non-existent things do not have any informational value, properties, or relevance.. Being able to conceptualize is irrelevant. And technically speaking non-existence can never be real. Non-existence can never be a literal existing person, place, object, substance, or thing.. And what I think you are trying to conceptualize is what happens to you if the lights go out.. Well, it's not much different than what happens when you turn your computer screen off. The displaying image simply ceases to continue to display. However, the energy and information that made it possible never actually ceases to exist.. It can only change states, function, or purpose.

Example:

Quote:If I erase a message on a chalkboard, is there a loss of information?

No there isn't as all that which comprised the message still exists. The chalk falls on the floor. Same concept in dealing with your conscious mind should you go brain dead..
Quote: My mind has come into existence in the true material world, the only thing which vanishes when my mind ceases is

This would be incorrect. Your mind is a material phenomenon of the material world. Hence, you can't be made of nothing as nothing can't be anything at all. Nothing can not support or have the capacity to contain information or an existence. So yes, even an image in your mind is indeed a material physical pattern of information. It's not immaterial at all, and not anymore so than the chalk message on the chalkboard. So just because you can format a hardrive, it doesn't mean you can actually destroy information in the literal sense. Hence, You would still exist in some form or another, but you lose the conscious ability as all the information and processes that supported your conscious state or mind no longer function, or serve that purpose. Those Atoms might become the stuff of stars once again, or become a part of some other living thing.


Quote:Sure, you're correct that it doesn't make things any more clear. My position just allows for things which materialism does not, which is why I hold it.

Sorry, your position will not magically allow nothing to be something, or have any value greater than nothing. Immateriality is the concept of believing things being made of nothing can magically exist.. It's a self-refuting argument..


Quote:Under my position the ideas of truth and knowledge are completely different from the materialist opinion; truth is subjective to my model of reality and knowledge is truly limited to the capabilities of the mind.


Just because you can construct a self-refuting logical fallacy doesn't mean it will magically be possible.. Opinions also will not magically make nothing into something..

Quote:Non-existence can exist as a concept, but it could never be perceived.

Again, self-refuting concepts invalidate themselves. Non-existence is literally impossible.. If nothing existed, or non-existence existed, there would be no existence of any sort. There can never be "Nothing" in the literal context. These terms are only place cards for what you expect to be there, or descriptive words for what you are lacking and nothing more.
Quote:1. True material world exists, and that we perceive parts of that world.
2. Our perceptions do reflect the true material world, I believe, but the model of reality we experience is just our bits of perception pieced together.
3. Our minds are external from this model of reality.

1. Is all there is... And you are a material physical phenomenon of it
2. Irrelevant if you believe that or not.. It will not negate premise one
3. Incorrect. The mind can not be immaterial (nothing)..

Quote:As you established earlier, our mind is basically what we are. Therefore, our mind (and therefore us) is outside the models of reality. How can we exist external to the model of reality and still perceive our existence within it? This may be an error of wording, where you are actually trying to say conceptualize instead of perceive.

Video Games.. However this also doesn't invalidate the fact you can not exist outside the material world in a magical place of nothing made of nothing...
Quote:I'll try to address the physical reality first. It wouldn't be of any use in the true material world if we possessed free will inside of our models of reality. Now that that's been sorted, let's move on to how free will exists in our models of reality.

Free will is a logical fallacy.

Quote:The model of reality is created by the mind by gathering perceptions received from the true material world (though we can never be sure how closely they resemble the true material world).

There is only one reality.. It's called existence. It doesn't even matter if your existence is an illusion, simulation, or the figment of the imagination of another being. All things exist in and of existence itself to which is one entity to which consists of all realities, states of being, or places of existence ect. It's a Universal Set of All Sets.

And the biggest difference between me and your argument is that the one I posted can represent a universal set of all sets. You even have to abide by it's premises just to make an argument here. :/


Quote: This would mean that both the mind and the perceptions which it receives are external to the conceptualized world. Both being the creator of and being external from the model of reality would allow the mind the ability to control, or at least have influence on, the model of reality.

Existence produces you as you are in and of existence as an emergent property of existence. You as an emergent cognitive and conscious property of existence can however influence various aspects of reality, but you can't literally create reality itself.. Hence, you can build cars but you can't create what you make cars with because you can only use what already exists to create with.. You can't create reality what-so-ever, you can only creatively play with it and be a product / emergent property of it.

Quote:This influence is referred to as free will and is what gives us reign over our conceptualized existence.

I can't conceptualize my bank account to suddenly be 100 trillion tomorrow morning. You don't have free will, you just have limited ability to do a limited number of things. No matter how you argue, you will never have "free will" to which is by definition without constraints of any kind. Existence itself actually governs your existence, and that is not something you can will yourself out of.. Any free will you think you have is a placebo.




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RE: Do you believe in free will?
(April 19, 2012 at 12:49 am)Perhaps Wrote: Premise 4 should then be stated as: The mind conceptualizes our existence within our models of reality

I'll try to address the physical reality first. It wouldn't be of any use in the true material world if we possessed free will inside of our models of reality. Now that that's been sorted, let's move on to how free will exists in our models of reality.

The model of reality is created by the mind by gathering perceptions received from the true material world (though we can never be sure how closely they resemble the true material world). This would mean that both the mind and the perceptions which it receives are external to the conceptualized world. Both being the creator of and being external from the model of reality would allow the mind the ability to control, or at least have influence on, the model of reality. This influence is referred to as free will and is what gives us reign over our conceptualized existence.

Essentially I view the issue as free will being 'truly' illusory, but since we live in a self conceived illusion (I know you won't like my wording of our concepts of reality) we're fine with accepting the influence of this additional illusion. To our conceptual existence free will is real, the same way the world as we perceive it is real. Outside of our created model of reality our free will is null and void, but we can never know what its like outside of our model of reality.

Fair enough. As your argument stands now, it seems okay. Now, the free will you have presented here, what would it be free from? I can see that it would be free from the model of reality insider your mind, but is it free from actual physical reality as well if we determine that your mind is completely determined by that physical reality?
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