Hello all. This is my first post. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have been agnostic for about a year now. I am open minded for either belief or non belief in god. I have read a lot on atheist forums and also christian apologetics websites. My favorite is William Lane Craig. I am sure he has some haters here but regardless, he is one of the smartest mind on the theist side. His greatest skill in my mind, is how well he deconstructs bad/faulty arguments of those on the atheist side. But I know that someone can win a debate and still be wrong. I just want help from others that might have similar experience with being a strong believer in any faith and then coming to clarity. For me, the simple, "show me evidence of god" argument is lacking. I don't believe that a deity that by logic would be a being that transcends space and time as we know it would be easily defined in that space and time. I just struggle the most with the fact that it seems like this universe had a start. And the other part that I struggle with, is that it seems like humanity is on a death spiral. I have read that this is a relatively peaceful time in human history and we have so many advances here and there. But when you look at global warming, nuclear warfare capabilities, worsening poverty issues, etc... it feel like humans will be bring on their own death within the next 100 years or so.

Some other things that will have no effect on me...

Bashing JWs- I believe strongly that JW's are great people that do have many faults in the organization and the people but overall it is a group of people that try their best to be good hardworking fellow citizens. And I know all the history that you can find in 10 seconds on google. I don't believe its a cult and that they use brain washing as a tactic.

God's immorality in the bible - I know this is a favorite of many atheist. I remember Matt from the atheist experience podcast once saying that he is more moral than god because of the things that god condoned in the bible. First of all, if you can be a MORE moral person that implies a moral BEST. If there is a moral best, then that implies absolute morals. And second of all, Matt's point was that even if there was a god he would be proud that he didn't serve him in any way. But then he would kind of be proving the bibles point that men fell away because they thought they knew better... Also, I don't believe that the bible reflects gods ideal condition. I don't believe the mosaic law was a perfect law. But I do believe that it could be argued that the mosaic law was the best possible law for an imperfect system.

"Matter cannot be created or destroyed" - Arguments like this are a laymans understanding of physical laws. I am a layman so I try not to get into such arguments. But I know that if it was such a good argument. then more atheist in the public world would employ it more often. From my lay understanding, some physical laws were not set until some time after the universe came into existence.

Please also feel free to ask any questions about what Jehovah's witnesses believe. Thanks!

(April 17, 2015 at 1:07 am)nicanica123 Wrote: Hello all. This is my first post. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have been agnostic for about a year now. I am open minded for either belief or non belief in god.

Welcome aboard. This is a good start, but dude, you got a long ways to go yet.

Quote:I have read a lot on atheist forums and also christian apologetics websites. My favorite is William Lane Craig. I am sure he has some haters here but regardless, he is one of the smartest mind on the theist side. His greatest skill in my mind, is how well he deconstructs bad/faulty arguments of those on the atheist side.

Which, then, must make it so very odd to you that he's incapable of even identifying his own bad arguments, like his "ministerial use of reason" tripe, or his "self authenticating witness of the holy spirit"; which are "only use reason that supports god!" and "I'll just keep believing in god no matter what evidence you have!" respectively.

Quote:For me, the simple, "show me evidence of god" argument is lacking. I don't believe that a deity that by logic would be a being that transcends space and time as we know it would be easily defined in that space and time.

An omnipotent being who, by all accounts, is capable of interfering with the physical world, would have no issue presenting evidence of itself.

Quote:I just struggle the most with the fact that it seems like this universe had a start.

Not all beginnings are god. Beginnings just get you to "a beginning," not "god."

Quote:And the other part that I struggle with, is that it seems like humanity is on a death spiral. I have read that this is a relatively peaceful time in human history and we have so many advances here and there. But when you look at global warming, nuclear warfare capabilities, worsening poverty issues, etc... it feel like humans will be bring on their own death within the next 100 years or so.

How is this an argument for god?

Quote:God's immorality in the bible - I know this is a favorite of many atheist. I remember Matt from the atheist experience podcast once saying that he is more moral than god because of the things that god condoned in the bible. First of all, if you can be a MORE moral person that implies a moral BEST. If there is a moral best, then that implies absolute morals.

You can derive objective morality from reality and the predictable way it behaves, you don't need a god for that.

I had JWs knock on my door at nine o'clock this morning. I thought I had gone onto their list, or whatever, as I hadn't seen them in ages. I don't remember seeing these two before, though. The gross thing is, they had a kid with them, who probably should have been in school- not knocking on doors and annoying nice people who are good without their silly tracts and canned god, and who don't appreciate unsolicited visitors.

So... yeah. Welcome.

BTW- all atheism is is a lack of belief in a god or gods. That's it.

Quote: he is one of the smartest mind on the theist side.

Then you guys are in deep trouble.

(April 17, 2015 at 1:07 am)nicanica123 Wrote: Hello all. This is my first post.

Hi

Quote:I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have been agnostic for about a year now. I am open minded for either belief or non belief in god. I have read a lot on atheist forums and also christian apologetics websites. My favorite is William Lane Craig. I am sure he has some haters here but regardless, he is one of the smartest mind on the theist side.

If WLC is their best, I don't want to meet their worst.

Quote:His greatest skill in my mind, is how well he deconstructs bad/faulty arguments of those on the atheist side.

Rare events do happen.

Quote:But I know that someone can win a debate and still be wrong. I just want help from others that might have similar experience with being a strong believer in any faith and then coming to clarity.

So you came to a discussion forum not for a discussion but to ... ... affirm your beliefs onto them?

Quote:For me, the simple, "show me evidence of god" argument is lacking.

That is not an argument. It is a request for justification.

Quote:I don't believe that a deity that by logic would be a being that transcends space and time as we know it would be easily defined in that space and time.

A being that is not doesn't experience time cannot do anything because there is no time to do it. Time is what allows for transition in states.

Quote:I just struggle the most with the fact that it seems like this universe had a start.

Therefore, Loki has successfully deceived the human race into believing the stupidest shit for his personal amusement.

Quote:And the other part that I struggle with, is that it seems like humanity is on a death spiral. I have read that this is a relatively peaceful time in human history and we have so many advances here and there. But when you look at global warming, nuclear warfare capabilities, worsening poverty issues, etc... it feel like humans will be bring on their own death within the next 100 years or so.

Every generation says we are living in the end times. The world is on a death spiral, the end is nigh. Remember the black death, cuban missile crisis, and Y2K. They have all been wrong. Why should this case be any different?

Quote:Some other things that will have no effect on me...

Bashing JWs- I believe strongly that JW's are great people that do have many faults in the organization and the people but overall it is a group of people that try their best to be good hardworking fellow citizens. And I know  all the history that you can find in 10 seconds on google. I don't believe its a cult and that they use brain washing as a tactic.

Thats nice.  

Quote:God's immorality in the bible - I know this is a favorite of many atheist. I remember Matt from the atheist experience podcast once saying that he is more moral than god because of the things that god condoned in the bible. First of all, if you can be a MORE moral person that implies a moral BEST. If there is a moral best, then that implies absolute morals. And second of all, Matt's point was that even if there was a god he would be proud that he didn't serve him in any way. But then he would kind of be proving the bibles point that men fell away because they thought they knew better... Also, I don't believe that the bible reflects gods ideal condition. I don't believe the mosaic law was a perfect law. But I do believe that it could be argued that the mosaic law was the best possible law for an imperfect system.

Really, mosaic law is the best. Woohoo, I'm going to canada to get me some slaves.

Quote:"Matter cannot be created or destroyed" - Arguments like this are a laymans understanding of physical laws. I am a layman so I try not to get into such arguments. But I know that if it was such a good argument. then more atheist in the public world would employ it more often. From my lay understanding, some physical laws were not set until some time after the universe came into existence.

It's "Energy cannot be created or destroyed." Also, what argument are you talking about?

Quote:Please also feel free to ask any questions about what Jehovah's witnesses believe. Thanks!

You'll have to compete with my good friend google, but I'll ask if he fails me.

Hello Nican, welcome

WLC is a professional con man. All of his arguments are fallacious. If you want to bring us any particular one of his you think is the best, we'll deconstruct it for you. Would that make any difference to you? Not least of which is the huge non sequitur between the deistic god he pretends to be "debating" for, and his conclusion that suddenly that God is Yahweh.

The thing is, it's misguided to ask an atheist for proof why there is no God. That is a shifting of the burden of proof. I can however give reasons why I've been wholly unconvinced that there is a god.

And I'd like to add that for me, I don't care if the God of the bible is real. I wouldn't worship anything or anyone, least of all someone demanding it of me while holding my happiness hostage. If he wants to have a sensible relationship with me, he knows where I am.

Hello nicanica!

(April 17, 2015 at 2:27 am)Surgenator Wrote: A being that is not doesn't experience time cannot do anything because there is no time to do it. Time is what allows for transition in states.

The poster said, "as we know it". Why can't a being transcend our own time dimension? Maybe that being exists in a separate time dimension or two...or three....or four or an infinity of time dimensions. Let me see you use your puny 3 spatial 1 temporal dimensional brain contemplate a googolplex spatial and googol temporal dimensional being. Tell us what a being, if one exists, is like.

Hello and welcome, nice to have you here!

Concerning what you write -

I'm sure Matt D. meant that according to some basic moral principles many of us today share including most believers, he (along with most people) are more moral than God. Now, one can possibly argue that there is then a moral best on this reference axis, but by analogy with mathematics, this need not be so. But even if I agree to that for the sake of argument, it does neither follow that morality is absolute, or that any being actually reaches this maximum. This reference frame of morality we start with here may partly be a cultural accident, but surely much of it is determined by the fact that we are all humans, most capable of empathy.From this, what you claim does not follow.

Indeed, the argument from physics, that Energy cannot be created or destroyed, is not by default applicable to the universe as a whole, only to fields and particles within the universe. One cannot use it to argue for a creator for a universe. It doesn't even make sense to talk about creating or destroying if there is no time line as a reference on which temporal processes are defined.

Also, I hate agreeing with woodie, but sure, I can imagine a few more time dimensions on which a godhead could run. I just wonder why that would change anything in favor of its existence...

WLC? Ugh. He's not a honest thinker, he's in a propaganda war.

Cheers
p.s. you all should reconsider this blood transfusion thing, that's fucked up and useless.

Matt argues that some actions are more moral than others; this is a very reasonable deduction from our everday experiences. Most of us "know" that hitting someone over the head for no reason is less moral than helping them out with something, in most situations. So he argues that there must be a set of actions in each situation which, according to the person about to make them, represents the most moral actions possible. Yes, this is a matter of opinion for each person. But people in general have become pretty good at making sound moral judgements. If they didn't, society wouldn't work like it does.

This isn't exactly hard science, but I think to deny its logic is to ignore pretty much everything about society, and the moral compass almost everyone has inside them. If someone wants to say that they can't decide what is better between feeding and raping a child without asking the opinion of a celestial being, then they are either a sociopath or are talking crap. And anyhow, if you surrender all your moral judgements to a "system" you blindly follow, then you have no morality at all. You're just a servant of a system.